Tricycle | Awake in the World

Tricycle: The householder life is very common in American dharma practice, yet this is quite different from Asia. Does the lifestyle affect the practice?

Goldstein: A friend went to see a Tibetan lama in Nepal and asked how he could become liberated as a householder. Rinpoche replied, "Even the Buddha had to renounce the household life." This has to do with renunciation, because on many levels, renunciation is what frees the mind: renunciation of grasping, renunciation of our attachments.

Tricycle: Where does that leave us?

Goldstein: For me this is the dilemma of coming back to the West both in terms of teaching and of continuing my own practice. The ongoing challenge for Westerners is to find a way to bring that power into the life of the layperson. One way is through the retreat setting, because for that period of time a significant amount of renunciation takes place. Because of the constraints in peoples' lives, some can do a weekend, ten days, three months. A surprising number of students here have done many three-month retreats, which in our culture is unusual. I think they've been motivated because it offers a genuine taste of the monastic experience, and the power that can come from it.

Tricycle: Do you still feel a difference between your daily life as a layperson and as retreatant?

Goldstein: Yes. One of the things I love most about being on retreat is the silence. Because I'm teaching and speak with people a lot, the contrast of being in silence is both restful and inspiring. As a corollary to that, I find that when I'm on retreat I don't waste time. I know just what I'm doing and the situation is conducive to my doing it. There's the sense that from the time of waking up in the morning to the time of going to sleep, my only job is to really pay attention.

Tricycle: The idea that the householder lifestyle can be made comparable in power and practice to traditional monasticism is becoming more and more popular. Do you think that's possible?

Goldstein: Possible, but rare. There have been cases of great enlightened masters as householders. But it's not common. As householders we're busy and we have a lot of responsibilities, and the work of dharma takes time. The view that it's as perfect a vehicle as monasticism doesn't accord with what the Buddha taught. He was very clear in the original teachings that the household life is "full of dust." But since we don't have a monastic culture in America, the great challenge is how to achieve liberation as laypeople. We need to look at the degree to which we are willing to make our life our practice—not just as words but in the actual choices we make. One of the beautiful things about the teachings is that the Eightfold Path is very explicit. It lays out what we need to do. We have to honestly ask ourselves what our priority is. Is it awakening? Or is dharma practice something I do simply to keep me cooled down?

Tricycle: Do you think not having a vital monastic establishment will affect the level of teachers and practitioners in the West?

Goldstein: Well, I wonder whether we, as a generation of practitioners, are practicing in a way that will produce the kind of real masters that have been produced in Asia. I don't quite see that happening—although there may be people leading reclusive lives that have that level of realization. Dialogue about that among Western teachers would help us to see what conditions we need to create for people to reach those levels of realization, of mastery.

Tricycle: Do you think the obstacles to that kind of mastery in this country are different than they were, or are, in Asia?

Goldstein: Yes. That intense devotion to practice has traditionally happened in the context of monasticism, where there was the support for the long sustained effort. We don't have that support system as yet in our culture, and even if somebody wanted to spend a lifetime in practice, unless they were independently wealthy it would be hard to do.

Tricycle: Many Buddhist feminists fault the Buddha for abandoning his wife and child—his householder life—to seek enlightenment.

Goldstein: That's a confusion of levels.

Tricycle: What do you mean?

Goldstein: My Burmese teacher U Pandita talked about making a distinction between dharma values and human values. Although they often overlap, there are appropriate choices and decisions to be made in each of those realms. In the realm of human values, one would not renounce one's family to go off to become a Buddha, because in the realm of human values the greatest value is placed on human relationships. In the realm of dharma values the greatest value is placed on awakening, on enlightenment, and that's the reference point for the choices that one makes. I think there are skillful ways of going between these two realms.

To fully comprehend the story of the Buddha and his renunciation of the householder life, it would be necessary to understand the evolution over lifetimes of the Bodhisattva, and those of his wife, Yasodhara, who had mutual aspirations, for many, many lifetimes. This was not a sudden decision, "Okay, I'm splitting." This was the fruition for both of them of many lifetimes of aspiration. That action can't be separated from the power of the Buddha's motivation. It was an act of renunciation to benefit all sentient beings, done for the accomplishment of the supreme good. In the case of the Buddha the power of that action is still benefiting beings all these centuries later.

Tricycle: In terms of human values and dharma values, where do you place Buddhism in America?

Goldstein: I think that we often practice the dharma in service of human values.

Tricycle: For what reason?

Goldstein: Perhaps many people haven't met teachers who have completely realized the truth, teachers who might inspire them to something greater, more transcendental.

Tricycle: Americans do seem to want to humanize the spiritual realm.

Goldstein: The degree to which we have been inspired to the possibility of freedom and awakening is a direct result of the great teachers that we've met. That's why I feel it's so important for us to continue deepening our practice. Many of the teachers in the West have a genuine level of realization and have a great deal to offer but may not yet be fully cooked. I certainly feel that way about myself.