Ask the Meditation Doctor! - A discussion with Brad Warner
It's meditation month here at Tricycle.com and to celebrate, we're offering a free e-book, Tricycle Teachings: Meditation, to our Supporting and Sustaining Members. But you don't need to be a member in order to sit with us every day in February. That's what we're doing, inspired by Sharon Salzberg's Real Happiness Challenge, and we'll blog our experiences here.
Zen monk Brad Warner, proprieter of the blog Hardcore Zen, author of four books on Zen, and head of the international Dogen Sangha, will also drop by to answer your questions. Are your meditation sessions giving you fits? Does your practice need a shot in the arm? You're in the right place! The doctor will see you now.
Need help getting started? Read Brad's five sure-fire tips from the latest issue of Tricycle to get you on the cushion.
Post your questions to the meditation doctor below, or email them in.
I feel there's a lot of judgment involved in sangha-sitting, which is why for beginners it may be better to sit alone. But think of going to the gym, if you don't have other people around, your determination might falter. I guess I would ask Warner Sensei if he thinks sitting in a group is better if you're a beginner looking to develop into a regular sitter, or if the being on your own means you develop the willpower. I read his blog and I think it's funny!
I've done most of my sitting alone. In some ways it's tougher because, as you say, you have to provide your own motivation. I like to sit with a group at least once a week because it's a different atmosphere. I don't like to talk all New Age-y about "energy" and all that. But I do feel a kind of group energy when sitting with others.
When it comes to longer meditation things, like retreats, I find I need a group. It's very hard to sit a retreat by yourself. Though I know some people who have done it. If you're with a group you're less likely to run screaming out of the room on day four.
Most beginners seem to start with groups. But it's not absolutely necessary. If you can do it on your own, then do it.
As far as judgment is concerned... yeah, a lot of people feel like they're being judged by the others sitting with them. And maybe they are. But it doesn't matter. Everybody else is in exactly the same position as you. If some people are sitting around forming opinions about other people's practice, that's a distraction they need to address for themselves. It's not really your problem.
Totally agree.
Guitar teacher Robert Fripp always says at the beginning of his retreats ' You'll find that some people here irritate you. Don't worry, no problem - you'll also be irritating them! '
I love Robert Fripp!
to me at dai bosatsu and at nyzc sitting with others was profoundly strengthening and motivating and settling, that is greatly reduced distraction. just an observation.
A quote from this site I got in my email this morning: "It is important to sit with the clear intention to be present. At the same time, we need to let go of expectations. In a very real sense, what happens when we sit is none of our business. The practice is to accept whatever arises instead of trying to control our experience. What we can control is our wise effort to be present with what is." helped me articulate what my struggle is. I'm still new to it, a little over a year, but "what happens is none of our business..." for me what happens is thinking. Not a big revalation but I don't really struggle or experience too much but thining. The moods and emotions i can handle, the daily practise, etc. but i find it hard to concentrate beyond a few mins at a time. If i try harder it becomes too tight, so i loosen it which opens the gates to thinking. Hard to find a balance...after 40 mins it gets worse. I'd like to have better concentration. I don't want years to go by and realize I'm doing something wrong. I'm at that point where I may need to re-evaluate in order to move forward or maybe i need to chill out and be patient. Both are fine, just as long as i'm not just sitting there, relaxing, thinking and nothing else ;)
You're not doing anything wrong. What comes up is just the content of your practice. That's all. Kobun Chino Roshi said it was "the content of your enlightenment."
I like all of that quote you cited except for the part about having a clear intention to be present. To me, it's more important just to sit. That's all. Intention is just another thing your brain is playing with. It doesn't matter very much. Just stay still for the time you've allotted yourself.
If you're not concentrated, then you're not concentrated. There's a story about a Zen monk who says, "If a clear mind comes, let it come. If a cloudy mind comes, let it come."
I read your blog and was just watching some of your Youtube vids so it's strange to have you answering my questions...like Wayne's World "we're not worthy" haha much appreicated and your Zen quote for me will be a keeper.
I really enjoy your contributions to Tricycle's mag too and hope you'll be featured more often. The part in this months about not eating breakfast till you meditate...this morning was morning #1 using that idea. It seems to click with me. Evenings are less of a problem.
This is really cool...and I feel very fortunate to have access to all this stuff for $30/year.
reading your book, Chapt 5...my Wayne's World thing above sounds like someone "looking for an authority figure to take on responsability for your life" but...i was just trying to be funny...i think :)
In Joseph Goldstein's piece in this month's magazine, he suggests three three-minute sessions a day to try to better understand (experience) karma and anatta (no-self). That "no-self" piece always gets me. I do know what he's talking about. The direct experience of sitting shows you all these "experiences", these "events" this "flowing" that's going on, coming and going, largely independently of anything "you" may wish or direct. You can see it happening right before "you". But the question of whether there is "anyone there" doing all this is an odd one, even though I do understand it's importance. The question is--just exactly who or what would this "anyone" be? A little guy in a loin cloth seated somewhere making "you" happen? When the Buddha looked for this self and didn't find it, what the heck was he looking for exactly? I do think the experience of seeing a thought arise out of "nothing" and disappear into "nothing" like a whale breaching and falling back in the ocean (except the thought is ten zillion times less substantial than a whale) is a shocker. Is that what they are pointing to?
The cliche answer to this would be, "Who's asking?"
Which is, I think, the ultimate question. But the answer is that no matter how many ways you try to frame it, you're never going to come up with an frame that fits. But you keep on trying to frame it anyhow. It's just something the brain likes to do.
Three 3-minute sessions a day is an odd idea to me. It's certainly better than not doing it at all. And the idea of trying to experience something is... Maybe I just don't get it.
If you can sit still for 10 or 20 or 30 or 40 minutes, that's zazen at it's most basic. The rest is decoration. You can add to that some attempt at experiencing a certain thing that you've read about or you can use that time to try to create a conceptual framework for what you think you are. But there's not much point to doing so, as far as I can see.
The recurring theme of your answers seems to be--"let the sitting do it's job and just don't worry about trying to get anywhere." I think that's a good suggestion.
There was a period where I really "got somewhere" from my practice, but where I got was not entirely what I expected--it was a LOT better. When I stopped sitting, it all faded away eventually.
I'm restarting (I've restarted a couple of times but I'm just not going to give up). Would your advice be to just, once again, let the sitting do its job and look for nothing--especially not look for what I "got" before?
Just a minor point: Joseph Goldstein doesn't think 3 minutes is enough, either:
"It’s important to add, though, that nine minutes a day by itself won’t be enough. It needs to be built into the foundation of a daily meditation practice, together with the cultivation of the first strand of right understanding mentioned earlier: the awareness that our actions have consequences. If this nine-minute-a-day program is combined with other aspects of a daily practice, then I believe it can really enliven our understanding of how to apply the teachings in the midst of a very busy life. "
As for his suggestion that meditation leads to a certain kind of experience (anatta, or anicca, say), that's really a matter of a difference in traditions.
Great discussion and thanks for doing this, Brad.
Hope that was of some use. Carry on!
Hi Brad - My practise over the past few years has been based around vipassana with a strong focus on the anapanasati technique. I find this approach has served me well however I worry sometimes that I'm missing out on a looser approach - that I'm a bit 'hung up' on technique. Have you found this with zazen in relation to other techniques or do you feel that zazen has more room for manoeuvre so to speak. Have you tried other meditation practices - for example the Brahma Viharas or even some of the more esoteric pracises? I think one of the reasons I have stuck in particular with anapanasati is the Buddhas' revealing that this was his chosen technique during the rainy season retreats...maybe I'm too impressed by this!
First I have to own up to the fact that I've never really tried any meditative practices other than Zen for long enough to say that I really understood them thoroughly. I've been to guided meditation things in the Tibetan and Vipassana tradition, but only a handful of times. I attempted pranayama for about a month, though I learned the technique from a book and was probably doing it wrong. And that's about it. So it's difficult for me to make comparisons.
But I do feel that zazen in the Soto style is completely open. It's as open as you can possibly get. It resists any attempt to box it in. It really isn't focused on any goal at all.
The problem with any sort of technique or focus is that it's always based upon some kind of supposition. So the mind that wants to free itself creates an image of what being free is like and then makes efforts to realize that image. But the image it has created is the product of the delusion it seeks to transcend.
The esoteric stuff seems to me to be a way of seeking new kinds of delusions that are more exciting than the usual ones we're used to.
Having said all this, it's not my goal to try and convert anyone to the style of practice I do. I just feel like it may be useful to explain why I feel the way I do about it.
Thanks for that Brad - actually what I find really helpful in what you say is the idea of a supposition, I think this is where I have found problems in vipassana i.e. I am supposed to be feeling metta now or I am supposed to be more focused now. I know this is not what vipassana or samadhi practise is about but it is easy to fall into that trap. Anyhow I am about to take part in a zen retreat in a few weeks and it will be interesting to see how it goes...thanks for your generous input here...
A common theme that I hear over and over again by people who desire to meditate, try it once or twice, then give up, saying, "I couldn't concentrate", "I couldn't turn off my brain" Suggestions about helpful replies to these beliefs?
My article in the latest issue of Tricycle addresses that very subject.
Basically it doesn't matter if your meditation feels the way you think it ought to feel. Whether you can concentrate or not isn't important. And you emphatically should not turn off your brain. You'd die if you did that!
Nothing worth doing is easy. Just keep doing it and it will get better gradually.
I have been sitting of over 30yrs. When I initially started I was involved with a Renzai master who encouraged us to use Mu to cut off thinking. I now am doing Soto zen and the focus is on being present and mindful. I use my breath and continue to return to my breath. I just wonder could I be using my breath as a form of cutting off thoughts. My breath is my life line it helps me see that everything is impermenent.
I don't think you need to cut off thoughts. Just let them go and they'll stop by themselves. Sometimes returning to the breath is a useful way to kind of stay "on task" rather than daydream. Dogen seems to favor a sort of light touch as far as observing the breath goes. He says that he allows the in breath to be the in breath and the out breath to be the out breath.
Thought is something the brain needs to do the way the intestines need to digest food. The brain digests experience. So I try to let the brain do its job without paying it any more attention than I pay attention to the working of any other organ. This is easier said than done, of course.
Man, these analogies really help me. It's funny how it's so simple when you read it but the minute you go back to doing your day-to-day stuff you forget this and it becomes so complicated. Brad, this section from what I think is an excert of your book Sit down Shut up (which i picked up last night) really helped me. *** "See, you might say that there are two basic kinds of thought. There are thoughts that pop up unannounced and uninvited in our brains for no reason we’re able to discern. These are just the results of previous thoughts and experiences that have left their traces in the neural pathways of our brains. You can’t do much to stop these, nor should you try. The other kind of thought is when we grab on to one of these streams of energy and start playing with it the way your mom always told you not to do with your wee-wee in front of the neighbors. We dig deep into these thoughts and roll around in them like a pig rolling in its own doo-doo, feeling all that delicious coolness and drinking deep of their lovely stink." *** Since i read that...it works each time and i'm very easily able to differentiate between the 2. And it also explains why i felt like a sort of inner conflict trying to fend off all thoughts. Some just come, and you let them, the second wave of thinking is the one you can control. Not sure how that clicks for others but it was gold for me. Maybe this isn't the spot, but at some point, maybe on your blog, i'd love to hear your thoughts on Shambhala, the Sakyong and his father...just because it's my (short) background and it works for me. The days it doesn't work for me, these Zen concepts work. I was worried i'd get confussed but so far i'm not. For me it's a set of tools for whatever i'm served that day.
Anyway, thanks again!
I am rather new to meditation and I sit for20 minutes each day but everyday I find it so hard to stay concentrated on the breath and my mind seems to wander without me even knowing its happening. Should I try less time?
20 minutes is actually a pretty good beginner's level sitting time.
Don't worry about judging whether or not you're staying concentrated on the breath. That judging is nothing but your thinking mind trying to keep itself occupied. Just do the practice. It's called "practice" for a reason. Like anything else in life that you practice, it gets better as you do it more.
After spending years reading everything I could get my hands on related to Buddhism but only meditating...well, hardly ever...I am finally on the cushion daily for the past three months. What amazes me is that all the books and reading meant nothing without the sitting and now rather than needing more theory, I need help with just the sitting, posture etc. Half lotus just isn't happening. My knees ache and I'm beginning to wonder if I'm doing damage? Got any suggestions of good reads on how to just sit! I know this is meditation month and all, but I'm not seeing a ton on here about the physical mechanics. Ouch! Help! Thanks for your time and patience with all of us!
Yoga classes can be very helpful. It depends a lot on the teacher and the style. If you sign up for one of those "butt toning" yoga classes, it might not be so good. But traditionally, all of the yoga postures were supposed to be preparations for sitting in the full lotus posture. A good yoga teacher can help you a lot by looking at your specific body type and condition and then suggesting what to do to improve it. If you can't find a teacher there are also a load of good yoga books and instruction DVDs out there.
I'm an old guy and I can't sit in the lotus or half-lotus. I sit seiza, using a bench. While this is not quite as stable as the lotus, it allows me to sit easily for 40 minutes. The fairly traditional zendo where I sit with others has no problem with the bench. Zazen is not a competitive sport -- one should do whatever works.
I love what you said, by the way, about the relationship between intellectual knowledge (the books) and practice. I've been sitting for about three years & I read a lot about Buddhism, but it only makes sense as part of a practice. Keep sitting! Try seiza.
Thanks for both of your responses. Alas, I've tried sitting seiza and do like it, but doesn't ego always intrude? I want to sit like the Buddha sits;-)
Depends on which ego you're referring to: the smaller one or the larger one. (They're both you, btw.)
Alas, Zen can be so macho! When you are sitting, however you are sitting, according to Dogen Zengi, you ARE the Buddha.
That's what attracted me once. We did it in karate training, it was simple enough for samurai soldiers, you only needed to care about yourself.
Reading the above discussion, I am some what surprised to hear a term, such as ' judgement, " about sangha. My sangha, Vajra Vidya Portland Maine, is so very different. Working as a MD I had be very aware of time management to get there. Chanting in Tibetan is sometimes criticized as not relevant in these times, but with practice we are not only able to use Tibetan language but rest the words in English. Chanting this way requires complete concentration and is also very beautiful as well as inspiring. By the time we meditate my mind has calmed and thoughts that occur can be observed and released very readily. Also whatever rational argument may be used against this type of practice, I have found tremendous group energy and harmony. Unspoken bonds have developed and when overt suffering occurs in any member, the sangha has always been supportive of that person, stopping discussion or other planned action to provide that support. Even visiting teachers usually comment on this group dynamic. The very powerful effects of group dynamics is receiving more scientific attention especially relented to the powerful effects of sound also used in Shamanic traditions. Some modern traditions have developed such haste to throw away traditional practices without even trying to understand the effects including with modern scientific rigor.
Mr. Warner,
I live in Arkansas, and there are absolutely no zen teachers here. I sit by myself, and I worry that I may waste time doing it wrong because I have no guidance other than 25 books on Buddhism that each suggest a different way. You posted on your site you were looking for a gig. Arkansas needs a Zen teacher. Should I just continue, and not become attached to the idea that I need a teacher? I practice based on Charlotte Joko Beck's book "Nothing Special." Thank you.
(We apparently had a Zen teacher come once a year, but right after I found out about him he died, right before the tsunami, at, like, 88!)
Depending on where you live in Arkansas, it might be helpful for you to know that there is a sangha practicing in the tradition of Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh in Little Rock. I don't know if this sangha has a dharma teacher within it, but in this tradition, we learn from Thay's teachings via books and recorded dharma talks, and from each other. Just a thought. I also love Charlotte Joko Beck's writings.
_/\_
That's the place with the no zen teacher. ....... So your not coming? Talking with others is enough, we don't need a teacher?
That's the place with the no zen teacher. ....... So your not coming? Talking with others is enough, we don't need a teacher?
LaceyR, it sounds like you're responding to Lauren T's comment as if it came from me. Nothing wrong with the comment itself, though.
Lots of things and lots of people can be your teacher. It's best not to limit yourself too much to only accepting what comes from someone who has a specific title and designation. Dogen said that he would listen to what was truthful even if it was spoken by a six year old child. Sometimes they're very truthful!
As for me coming to Arkansas, once I'm a bazzillionaire I'll be able to just fly out to wherever people ask me to go. At the moment, though, I need to find ways to pay for any trip I take. If you think you have a way, let me know and I'll come out. That won't solve your problem. But it might be a fun time anyway.
Yes, sir, I sure did. I never said I could read. Thank you very much, that was very helpful! apparently I have a lot of work to do with judgments and relearning how to read. Thank you for your time.
I've been doing sitting meditation for just less than a month. I've done the practice in the past but not consistently. I'm determined to do this in a more consistent manner. However I've been really having a difficult time with the drowsiness that seems to overcome me as I concentrate on the breath and relax. After I do a pass through to attend to different sensations of the body to help me stay with the present, and just stay still to concentrate on my breath, I don't seem to have the problem of just noticing thoughts and eventually letting go. My problem has been with drowsiness. I tried to keep my eyes open to avoid from falling asleep, but i still get swept into that relaxed state. I tried to get enough sleep, not eat before meditation, keep the room a bit cooler, but none of them has really helped. I try to sit for 30 minutes. But sometimes within the first 10 minutes, I start struggling because of drowsiness. Is there anything else you could suggest so I can be aware throughout my meditation? I would very much appreciate it.
It sounds like you've already tried almost everything I would normally recommend. I think if you just stick with it, this will eventually become less of a problem.
The state in zazen can often be very relaxing. In some ways it's rather close to sleep. For example, most of us tend to direct the mind very strongly except when we want to fall asleep. Those who can't make this shift to not directing the mind often suffer from insomnia. I know I did for a very long time.
Sometimes what happens is that the loosening of the grip on the mind seems like a trigger for sleep. Because that's the only other time most of us habitually do that.
I say just try sitting with your drowsiness for a while. After a while you'll find a spot where you can be relaxed and awake at the same time.
Thank you for your feedback. This morning, as I sat in meditation I noticed something different. I got really drowsy again. In the past I haven't had difficulties watching my thoughts without judgment and eventually letting go, as long as drowsiness hasn't set in. But as soon as I relax in that spaciousness, that's when drowsiness walks in. It's like a thief in the night. I've also noticed that peculiar thoughts/stories would start up as drowsiness sets in; almost like a fantasy. This time I was vigilant about catching it quicker than before to bring me back to the present. As I persisted on this, I started feeling agitated, irritable, and a few other sensations started coming up to the surface. I stayed and observed these arising sensations and watched them arise and subside. The drowsiness is my mind's top strategy of distraction to avoid being in the present. The thoughts start pouring out during this half-asleep state so the mind doesn't have to endure the boredom of not thinking!
Thank you for this excellent service of addressing meditation questions. It is an important area of social need.
I am interested in working through the jhanas. Is this typically done by practitioners without the guidance of a teacher? Would it be possible for you to make suggestions on helpful web-based guidance on entering and working through the jhanas?
My interest is prompted by a shift in meditation experience. For a few months, I have been experience deep, absorptive states. The states sometimes arise during non-meditation time (e.g., viewing a basketball game with family). When the states arise in this way, it feels like a firm demand for meditation, and as if an internal state is “working itself out.” I have been sitting 90 minutes a day or more since Nov. 1.
I want to try using the absorptive states to deepen insight, thus the interest in working through the jhanas. I am new to sutta study, so my knowledge of available options is limited. Perhaps the jhanas are just one option and there are other good approaches to working through periods of deep absorptive states? I would like your impressions on that issue as well. And thank you again.
Someone on Twitter warned folks that my advice was good, but to remember that "it is ZEN advice."
If you brought this question to a Zen teacher, she or he would most likely respond by being very dismissive, perhaps telling you to ignore these states and they'll go away. When you receive an answer like this — and I have on numerous occasions — it can feel cold and unhelpful. I often felt angry and resentful when hearing answers like this to what seemed to me to be profound and serious questions.
The thing is, though, that when you talk about special states of consciousness and what to do with them, what you're bringing to the teacher is not your state at the present moment. What you're describing is your memory of a past state and your plans for what to do if that state should occur again in the future. And this itself is the root of our real problems, our tendency to regard the past and future as more important than this moment.
You are certainly free to try using the absorptive states to deepen insight. But I feel like you'd be cheating yourself out of the opportunity to use the whole of your life to deepen insight. You'd start to regard these rare and unusual states as more important than the ones that occur most of the time. Then 5% of your day might begin to take over 95% of your life. I'd say that if such states occur, it's OK to enjoy them while they last. But do so very carefully.
Sometimes such states are just another clever trick of the mind to move you away from what's really important. I'm not sure, for example, I'd want to ride in a car being driven by someone in a "deep absorptive state" unless, of course, they were deeply absorbed in the act of driving a car. When viewing a basketball game with your family, perhaps a more important task is to be with your family than to attend to your state of mind.
This is where new ageism, chemically induced states, and other baggage become confused with Buddhism, especially in Western interpretations of the Law.
Hi there,
I recently added Metta Meditation to my Zen practice and feel great benefits through openings in the heart etc. - I would like to know how to best balance between the two practices. At the moment i start with Zen and then after half an hour or so, move into Metta practice. Is that alright, or should i rather practice them seperately?
Thanks
This has been a huge help and I’m starting to see how whatever comes up, comes up – even though there’s that annoying background noise “you’re thinking too much…” I think part of my problem is probably from reading stuff and then looking into it too much. Like your book on Dogen and how he originally meditated for 9 years till he moved on and found Soto and after 2 years with that “experienced the dropping of mind and body”. If Zazan or meditation in general is about whatever comes up why did Dogen not experience that till he found Soto? Maybe that’s why I keep thinking I’m doing it wrong and keep looking for that next book or technique. On one hand I understand that isn’t the case, it’s about this moment, it’s about what comes up, but on the other I still secretly think the answer is out there. And when that part of me reads something like what Dogen did, it latches on and confuses the heck of me. But…I also am starting to understand that I need to sit and clarity will come via sitting, not via intellectualizing. Even as I write this I guess I’m answering my own question, eh? (I’m Canadian ;) )
As a side note…somewhere above about a Tweet that your advice is actually Zen advice…the thing about that is there’s 1000’s of teachers but only a handful that can convey the message in a way that people like me can “get it”. Just like schools…all the same subject, lots of “not so good” teachers.
Does anyone have any thoughts on why we say "receive enlightenment"? I don't think it's just a matter of semantics. I've been thinking about that phrase a lot lately, wondering where it comes from and why it is that we should 'receive' this thing called enlightenment, when it often feels like the process of sitting on that cushion is based on sheer willpower alone. It's easy to feel like one "earns enlightenment," which I've heard before, but more often I hear "received enlightenment." I'm really not trying to just be nit picky. I think that a lot of our misunderstandings in relation to meditation and Buddhism in general find their root in a misunderstanding of the very terms and phrases that we use to describe what is essentially indescribable. Thoughts?
It arises from dualism, in that enlightenment is one thing and your daily life another. In such a case enlightenment, nirvana, everlasting life in heaven, etc. are things and places the average joe must receive, attain, arrive at after long and arduous austerities. Buddhism teaches that the two only appear to be separate but are in reality one and the same, like two sides of a coin.
Thanks for response Dominic, and I agree. I guess you've helped me clarify my question. What I'm wondering is whether "receive enlightenment" is a flawed phrase because of the dualism it suggests and has only come about in recent years by non-enlightened beings? Or is it an actual translation of how a Buddha would describe the process. Guessing the former.
"Receive" is probably better than "attain," which one also sees from time to time. As the pop phrase has it, "It's not about you." In zazen, according to Dogen, the sitter allows the 10,000 things of the world to manifest their Buddha nature and in so doing discovers that he/she is also one of the 10,000 things. In Genjokoan, Dogan writes: "To carry the self forward and illuminate myriad dharmas is delusion. That myriad dharmas come forth and illuminate the self is enlightenment." This is a translation from Japanese, of course, but not the grammar -- Dogen is being very careful in the way he describes the "who does what to whom" of enlightenment. Which is all a long-winded way of saying that you are absolutely right to think about the details of how we describe the enlightenment experience.
(But then I'm one of those "gradual illumination Soto types, so I'm a little suspicious of most talk about enlightenment.)