Who’s Spying on the Dalai Lama? March 29, 2009
Posted by James Shaheen in : General , trackbackFrom the New York Times:
A vast electronic spying operation has infiltrated computers and has stolen documents from hundreds of government and private offices around the world, including those of the Dalai Lama, Canadian researchers have concluded.
The spies managed to infiltrate over 1,200 computers in 103 countries, the Times reports. Most of the servers supporting the operation were traced to China, along with one in southern California. The Dalai Lama, among others, was targeted:
… the researchers found that specific correspondence had been stolen and that the intruders had gained control of the electronic mail server computers of the Dalai Lama’s organization.
The electronic spy game has had at least some real-world impact, they said. For example, they said, after an e-mail invitation was sent by the Dalai Lama’s office to a foreign diplomat, the Chinese government made a call to the diplomat discouraging a visit. And a woman working for a group making Internet contacts between Tibetan exiles and Chinese citizens was stopped by Chinese intelligence officers on her way back to Tibet, shown transcripts of her online conversations and warned to stop her political activities.
Read more here.
Comments
The problem of infiltration has two parts: Hardware and software, or content. The first is touched on by the article, as to the second there has been orchestrated state sponsored content-generation on a massive and world wide scale, in an attempt to overwhelm any dissent or views that diverge from the PRC’s policy posture du jour, both at home and abroad. According to a Far Eastern Economic Review article by David Bandurski of Hong Kong University’s China Media Project: “They have been called the “Fifty Cent Party” the “red vests” and the “red vanguard”. But China’s growing armies of Web commentators - instigated, trained and financed by party organizations - have just one mission: to safeguard the interests of the Communist Party by infiltrating and policing a rapidly growing Chinese Internet. They set out to neutralize undesirable public opinion by pushing pro-Party views through chat rooms and Web forums, reporting dangerous content to authorities.
By some estimates, these commentary teams now comprise as many as 280,000 members nationwide, and they show just how serious China’s leaders are about the political challenges posed by the Web. More importantly, they offer tangible clues about China’s next generation of information controls - what President Hu Jintao last month called “a new pattern of public-opinion guidance.”
A Chinese language pro-Shugden site (financed by westerners) praises Chinese policy and fantasizes the future of the god Shugden with millions of potential converts in PRC. The site features a photo the Chinese Panchen Lama substitute {who conveniently is the son of two state security agents}, in front of the god’s picture. “Then from China, Dorje Shugden’s practice will spread to the multitudes of Chinese speaking areas of Asia, then the world. Everyone respects China either for monetary, business or cultural reasons. It is after all one of the greatest cultures known to man …Everything Chinese will be respected and proliferated in the world….” (and so forth)
Clearly there is reciprocal ideological support between the Shugden cultists and China,–financial links are an area that requires investigation, but certainly some of the Shugden cultists have received money from PRC. The upshot for computer users, which means you if you are reading this, is as stated on another thread:
AVOID ALL PRO-SHUGDEN, NKT/WSS WEBSITES.
THERE IS A DANGER YOU WILL INFECT YOUR PC WITH CHINESE MALWARE AND SPYWARE.
THESE ARE NOT SAFE PLACES TO VISIT.
Letter of the day on a Shugden site manitained by westerners which has a Chinese language mirror site (I won’t provide the link due to extreme danger of malware)” And wouldn’t China promote (Shugden) bigger and better than anyone. After all they have economic power base that is growing by the month. So when we keep mentioning that this practice is not good..are we really fulfilling the purpose of suppressing the practice or making it grow bigger. We have to look beyond this generation alone. We have to look at China and her relationship with Dorje Shugden long after the Dalai Lama has passed on. Long after we have passed on. -Marc USA”
Dear Marc USA: Genocide in Tibet by PLA troops was recognized 50 years ago by the International Commision of Jurists, Read their report entitled “The Position of Tibet in International Law”, their findings are very clear THEN in 1959:
“1) Systematic disregard for the obligations under the Seventeen-Point Agreement of 1951;
2) Systematic violation of the fundamental rights and freedoms of the people of Tibet;
3) Wanton killing of Tibetans and other acts capable of leading to the extinction of the Tibetans as a national and religious group, to the extent that it becomes necessary to consider the question of Genocide.
It is submitted, with a full appreciation of the gravity of this accusation, that the evidence points at least to a prima facie case of Genocide against the People’s Republic of China. This case merits full investigation by the United Nations.”
2317. namkhah - March 30, 2009
..and NOW, 50 tears on
“The ICJ calls for a prompt and independent international investigation into allegations of human rights violations in the context of recent demonstrations. “The Government is seeking to seal Tibet off from the world, and there is considerable confusion about the truth surrounding recent events. It is essential that human rights experts be allowed to investigate the situation, including allegations that peaceful protestors have been killed and that other excessive force has been used by the security forces, and that protestors have been arbitrarily arrested and detained. It is in everyone’s interest to swiftly clarify exactly what is happening in Tibet now” said the ICJ.”
The link between NKT/WSS cultists and the People’s Republic of China is abundantly clear:
–The Indian Tribune reported Chinese Embassy official Mr Tau Wenching, and his wife accompanied by former monk Palang of the Shugden Society in Delhi visited the Tibetan settlement at Mundgod, in South India (1999): “an indication of the links that exist between the Shugden supporters and the Chinese embassy.”
http://www.tribuneindia.com
–Chinese People’s Daily online supports western WSS/NKT ‘protesters’ at New York Radio City, (one of many such officially written articles)
–State run media outlet Xinhua claims “In the 1990s, the Dalai Clique suddenly began attacking the Tibetan deity Dorje Shugden, who had been worshiped by Tibetan Buddhist for hundreds of years, calling it “a pro-Chinese demon.” On June 6, 1996, the Tibetan government-in-exile adopted a resolution to prohibit all staff with the Tibetan government-in-exile as well as all Tibetan communities, lamaseries and schools from worshiping the Dorje Shugden, saying that those who would not stop following the deity would be labeled as a public enemy of the Tibetan society.”
–March 10th of this year, 50th anniversary of the Tibetan uprising, unleashed a tsunami of anti-Tibetan bloggers, quoting extensively from Helmut Gassner, self-proclaimed expert on all things Tibetan.
–http://www.xiongdeng.com/ is a Chinese language pro-Shugden site praising Chinese policy financed by westerner cultists
(NB: this site may expose your PC to malware)
– Last but not least,Interpol has an outstanding Red Notices for Lobsang Chodak, 36, and Tenzin Chozin, 40, issued at the request of the Indian police who ecaped to China suspects in the unsolved triple Shugden cult murders in Dharamsala.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk
So you see, there is ample evidence of mutual advocacy from Chinese junta (who in essence are about as brutal as they come),their rabid ultra-nationalist online supporters and the Shugden cult. PRC’s allegations are indistinguishable from WSS–its hard to tell if you co-opt their material or they co-opt yours. Anyone who does not deplore Chinese authorities activities brutalising Tibetan Buddhists ought to be asking themselves some tough questions.
I don’t practice shugden, but this deity has recieved so much publicity that it got me interested to read more. After reading, I don’t see any logic to fear this deity, the practice or it’s lineage. As the lineage of this deity contains many extemely erduite masters who practiced this deity since its inception 350 years ago. The list of masters are endless.
These masters were practicing this deity long before China took over Tibet in 1959. So how could these masters have been involved with PRC???
That is the claim of the Tibetan Govt that Shugden practitioners are siding with PRC. But prior to the 1959 takeover, how were Shugden practitioners involved with PRC??
Was masters like the guru of HH the 14th Dalai Lama, His Holiness Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche inolved with the PRC?? Was he recieving monetary benefits from PRC? Definitely not. Trijang Rinpoche as known for his scholastic erudition, holder of many lineages, great tutor to HH Dalai Lama for 30 years, root guru of all great Gelugpa masters of this century, and one of the highest incarnate lamas produced in Tibet. There is no stain to this great master in any form and he was a great devotee of Dorje Shugden for many incarnations. None of his incarnations went to a bad rebirth due to Shugden practice. People say if you practice Shugden, you take bad rebirth, well Trijiang Rinpoche is back and residing in the USA.
So this so called connection to China and Shugden practitioners doesn’t make sense. In fact, if there is a connection, it is a recent phenomena. So this recently phenomena cannot invalidate the practice of this deity prior to 1959 when it was a main practice of many high and erudite masters within Tibet for 350 years.
The great 5th Dalai Lama and the current 14th Dalai Lama has in fact composed prayers to this Deity Dorje Shugden. It has been translated into English and it speaks for itself that Shugden is a great being. So the Dalai Lamas are incarnations of Avalokiteshvara. So hence they should be free of mistakes and their mindstreams omniscient.
I don’t find a need to practice Dorje Shugden, but this anti-propaganda against him, is in fact making him bigger. He has become the most well known Tibetan Deity in the world.
I have never hear of Dorje Shugden till the Tibetan Govt Websites keep talking about it. So I investigated. I don’t find anything wrong??
If the Chinese in China wish to pray to Dorje Shugden, what is wrong with that?
After all they have the right to pray and have freedom of worship like all of us here in the United States.
We have the KKK, Burton Levey (Church of Satan) here in the states and it is totally constitutional and legal. So why should the Tibetan Govt in exile condemn any practice, any religion, any sect, any deity, any worship?? Isn’t that against freedom to worship? Doesn’t Buddhism allow freedom of human choice?
If the Dalai Lama’s Govt wishes to show democracy, shouldn’t they allow their people to worship any deity and any religion they want??
Why does Dalai Lama and his govt make bans, restrictions or propaganda against any form of worship.
It is the 21st century, and Tibetans must open their minds to democratic religious worship.
That would be the 1st step to getting their country back. If they want western countries to support their cause, they must start with true democracy themselves.
Can a govt of a country (Tibetan Exiled Govt) restrict or push propaganda over anything their people worships??
Isn’t that like worse than what the Chineses are doing in Tibet?
No democratic leader in the world today would condemn or stop any form of religious worship.
Even the Pope dare not speak against other religions anymore.
Today’s world leaders must show acceptance and tolerance of all forms of worship even the worship of Dorje Shugden.
The Dharamsala Tibetan Govt only has a few years left and they are on the decline. Their existence depends on Dalai Lama. Once he passes,THEY ARE FINISHED. So instead of dividing their own ppl up on behalf of deities, shugden and sects. They should keep the ppl together.
I advise them to stop all this anti shugden rhetoric.
The Tibetan Govt is quite messy with their hate (silly in this day and age) against Shugden, their Two panchen lamas, their two karmapas and all the other religious politics. All they do is create more and more religious politics when they have severely FAILED IN GAINING FREEDOM FOR TIBET OR EVEN AUTONOMY. QUIT DIVERTING THE FAILURES TO THE SHUGDEN ISSUE.
I have been worshipping Dorje Shugden for the last 47 years. We recieved the practice from H.H. kyabje Trijang Rinpoche (root teacher of the current Dalai Lama). And my father, and his father and his father before him worshipped Dorje Shugden in our home province of Lithang in Tibet. Dorje Shugden is our ancestral protector for hundreds of years in our province and our home. Shugden has brought no harm to anyone in our family or region.
We love the His Holiness the Dalai Lama, we love Tibet, we are proud to be Tibetans. My father told me, in Tibet there was no conflict of interest with the worship of Dorje Shugden and being a strong Tibetan Patriot. Many people in our region, many other Tibetan regions as well as Lhasa officials prior to 1959 worshipped Shugden. There were millions of worshippers of this profound deity. Even the freedom fighters of tibet (Chushi Gangdruk) who escorted HH 14th Dalai Lama out of Tibet in 1959 safely, risking their lives worshipped shugden all the way. Every day of their escape escorting the Dalai Lama they offer sang (incense) and did rituals to Shugden for the safety of Dalai Lama. They were fiercely protective of HH Dalai Lama. It is due to their bravery, Dalai Lama was safely escorted to India in 1959.
Shugden was their patron deity and they were and are fierce Tibetan Patriots! May they rest in peace.
I have no affiliations with China (PRC) and I wish no affiliations with them. Nor do I wish them harm. We have immigrated safely to Canada and we appreciate our host country very much, but that does not mean I DON’T LOVE TIBET AND WISH MY ANCESTRAL COUNTRY TO BE FREE AND INDEPENDENT. LONG LIVE HH THE DALAI LAMA. LONG LIVE DORJE SHUGDEN!
I am Tibetan. I resent the association with PRC.
I practice Dorje Shugden and I will continue to.
I respect HH Dalai Lama. But he says if we practice Dorje Shugden, then we may not attend his teachings, be part of his works, be NOT united with the other Tibetans or have any connections with him.
That is very sad. Because muslims, jews, christians, sikhs, hindus, new age ppl, devil worshippers in the US, mormons, amish, atheists, black, white, yellow, red, brown, male and female, religious and non religious, pro-China and Anti-China people all can attend his kalacakara ceremonies, talks and teachings. ONLY DORJE SHUGDEN PRACTITIONERS MAY NOT.
Why are we the only people that may not attend???
Some of the Muslims bombed and destroyed the Buddha carvings in afghanistan. But if they wanted to attend a interfaith service with Dalai Lama, the Tibetan Govt in exile has zero restrictions for them.
But if we love Dalai Lama and we worship Dorje Shugden, we may not attend any of his teachings or talks. We may not even gain access to have audience with him.
That is very unfair and sad to be barred from one’s leader due to one’s religious faith.
Who is dorje shugden?
What is the big deal about him?
If he is a god, worhip him.
If he is a devil, then just stop!!
Why does the Tibetan Govt and Dalai Lama have to keep talking about Dorje Shugden over and over and over.
Don’t they have like bigger issues such as how to get their country back?
What happens after the Dalai Lama passes away?
What happens to the 150,000 Tibetans in India, and the 6 million in tibet?
Or who succeeds the Dalai Lama? Is anyone educated young, Tibetan secular Minister able to fill Dalai Lama’s shoes?
Hey big Issues,
See this website to know who Dorje Shugden is:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com
It is quite unbiased, fair and does not bash the Dalai Lama.
(Translated from Tibetan)
For three days, 2009 March 6 - 8, the leaders of Four Tibetan
Traditions and Bon Tradition, Highly Lamas, Abbots, Tulkus, and
representatives, gathered in the assembly hall of Thekchen Choeling,
Dharamshala, for the 10th Religious Meeting, where the adopted
resolutions:
Agenda:
5]
As per the gistof the intention of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, International Genden council,
and the resolutions of Three Great Seats regarding the evil spirit Dholgyal
(Shugden), monasteries including the Three Great Seats are heading toward positive
direction, cherishing it ones interest. However [we] will discuss what is the
best to carry out concerning the activity on the whole and the impairment
imposed by Dholgya adherents to Tibetan religion and politics, as well as their
various actions of defamation carried out against His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
Resolution:
A) For the sake of Tibetan religion and politics, His Holiness the Dalai
Lama, the overall head of all Buddhist Traditions on this earth, has given
admonition not to worship the spirit Dholgyal. For the leaders who are High
Lamas, Abbots, Tulkus, representatives, extend fully support on 10th
meeting. Furthermore, through this meeting, they appreciates and praise the monks
of Gelugpa monasteries for picking the vote-stick accorded the Vinaya and completely
relinquishing the religious and material ties with Dholgyal worshippers.
B)
If you take refugee in the worldly god and ghost, particularly the
evil spirit, it contradicts the taking-refugee which is the gateway to
Buddhism. As such, this religious committee will make clear that Dholgyal
worshippers, be it a private or organization, will not be accepted in any sect
of Tibet .
C)
Tibetan Buddhist Sects will examine and file in chronological order
the bans imposed on the nature, function and cause of Dholgyal by highly beings
of Tibetan Traditions for last 370 years and the detrimental to Tibetan
religio-politics as the result of worshipping the evil spirit Dholgyal. This is
published through various channels such as Internet and foreign languages, and
educates Tibetans and foreigners with explanation rich with many reasons.
The Name and Signature of presiding participants on the 10th
Religious Meeting:
1
Sakya Gongma Rinpoche
2
Karmapa Rinpoche
3
Menri Trizin Rinpoche
4
Sharpa Choeje Rinpoche
5
Representative of Penor Rinpoche
6
Representative of Drigung Chetsang
Rinpoche
7
Representative of Drug Rinpoche
8
Tsering Phuntsok, Minister of Dept. of
Culture and Religion, (Tibetan government in exile.)
(Translated from Tibetan)
For three days, 2009 March 6 - 8, the leaders of Four Tibetan Traditions and Bon Tradition, Highly Lamas, Abbots, Tulkus, and representatives, gathered in the assembly hall of Thekchen Choeling, Dharamshala, for the 10th Religious Meeting, where the adopted resolutions: Agenda: 5) As per the gist of the intention of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, International Genden council, and the resolutions of Three Great Seats regarding the evil spirit Dholgyal (Shugden), monasteries including the Three Great Seats are heading toward positive direction, cherishing it ones interest. However [we] will discuss what is the best to carry out concerning the activity on the whole and the impairment imposed by Dholgya adherents to Tibetan religion and politics, as well as their various actions of defamation carried out against His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Resolution: A)For the sake of Tibetan religion and politics, His Holiness the Dalai Lama, the overall head of all Buddhist Traditions on this earth, has given admonition not to worship the spirit Dholgyal. For the leaders who are High Lamas, Abbots, Tulkus, representatives, extend fully support on 10th meeting. Furthermore, through this meeting, they appreciates and praise the monks of Gelugpa monasteries for picking the vote-stick accorded the Vinaya and completely relinquishing the religious and material ties with Dholgyal worshippers. B)If you take refugee in the worldly god and ghost, particularly the evil spirit, it contradicts the taking-refugee which is the gateway to Buddhism. As such, this religious committee will make clear that Dholgyal worshippers, be it a private or organization, will not be accepted in any sect of Tibet . C) Tibetan Buddhist Sects will examine and file in chronological order the bans imposed on the nature, function and cause of Dholgyal by highly beings of Tibetan Traditions for last 370 years and the detrimental to Tibetan religio-politics as the result of worshipping the evil spirit Dholgyal. This is published through various channels such as Internet and foreign languages, and educates Tibetans and foreigners with explanation rich with many reasons. The Name and Signature of presiding
participants on the 10th Religious Meeting: 1 Sakya Gongma Rinpoche2 Karmapa Rinpoche3 Menri Trizin Rinpoche4 Sharpa Choeje Rinpoche5 Representative of Penor Rinpoche6 Representative of Drigung Chetsang Rinpoche7 Representative of Drug Rinpoche8 Tsering Phuntsok, Minister of Dept. of Culture and Religion, (Tibetan government in exile.)
Excommunicated!
Oh Gosh! Oh Golly!
The above is an extract from http://www.dorjeshugden.com
WE CAN SEE CLEARLY THAT THERE IS RELIGIOUS DISCRIMINATION AGAINST TIBETANS BY TIBETANS WHO PRACTICE DORJE SHUGDEN. THERE IS NO RELIGIOUS FREEDOM. WHERE IN THE WORLD TODAY HAVE GOVTS OPENLY EXHORTING BIAS ON THE BASIS OF RELIGION?
The above is translated from the Tibetan govt in exile’s own pronouncements. Imagine, they sponsor meetings specifically regarding this issue to ostracize.
The Legends of the Dalai Lama
This year will see the 50th anniversary of the uprising of the Tibetan people against China. In the West, the spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama, is worshipped like a pop star. Strange. The normally romanticized theocracy was a corrupt feudal system that enslaved its subjects.
Recently, in the context of his most recent trip to Europe, the Dalai Lama could receive the German Media Award in Baden-Baden, which has previously been granted to celebrities such as Nelson Mandela, Bill Clinton or Bono. On March 10 fifty years ago, the Tibetans rose up against the Chinese hegemony. And it is seventy years since a little farmer’s boy became ‘His Holiness’.
In winter 1937/38 [the common story of recognition follows].
Everybody loves the now 73-year-old Dalai Lama, and in particular have done so since 1998 when Martin Scorsese brought his autobiography called ‘Kundun’ into our cinemas. From Richard Gere through to Brad Pitt, from Patti Smith through to Peter Maffay, from Dolly Buster to Robbie Williams: everyone worships the non-stop world jet-setting spiritual leader of the Tibetans. When the Dalai Lama came to Switzerland three years ago, during his eight day visit 30,000 people went onto a pilgrimage to the Zurich stadium to see him. And as is clear with the idolization of the Dalai Lama, whom even people who are not normally fond of personality cults, call ‘His Holiness’, the same is true for Tibet. There is a common agreement that, before the Chinese marched in, this mountainous region was a paradise of meditating monks and happy farmers living in the midst of splendid mountain scenery — and that it would be again if it were not for the evil occupiers.
The reality is that until fifty years ago Tibet was a clerical-feudal tyranny. The truth is that a lot of the widespread common knowledge about the country is just wishful thinking. There are also dark sides to the biography of the Dalai Lama, and a lot of obscure stuff is mixed in with the esoteric Lamaism Schwärmerei (excessive sentimentality). However, since there is only little journalism on site, it is not easy to find the truth within the jungle of exile Tibetan and Chinese propaganda.
[Now follows some historical background and how the Dalai Lama, once recognized, lived until his escape.]
In the Dalai Lama’s autobiography, however, it sounds like paradise when he mentally travels back to the Tibet of his youth: “No one needs to make too much of an effort in order to earn his living. Existence happens on its own and everything works wonderfully.” Accordingly, during his reign, he did not make any effort to reform the country, apart from stopping the legal heritage of tax debts. The fact that political decisions are based upon oracles and astrology is no problem for him, who normally pretends to be democratic and progressive. Even though in his ‘five point peace plan’ he demands ‘respect for the democratic freedoms of the Tibetan people’, he himself has not tried until today, not even within the exile communities, to be democratically legitimized. Self-evidently he pretends to be the wholistic leader of the Tibetans, even though, strictly speaking, he is not even the spiritual representative of the whole of Tibet. He is merely the head of the Gelugpa order, the so called Yellow Hats, whose claim for leadership he has been trying to pursue for decades. These contradictions are also true for his ecological engagement. On the one hand, he demands to transform Tibet into a kind of natural reserve park and uses every opportunity to demand more ecological thinking in accordance with Mother Nature. On the other hand, from the first days of his exile onwards, at his seat in Dharamsala, the litter keeps being piled up simply on a large waste dump.
[Some stuff on the 1950’s in Tibet.]
While the Dalai Lama and his entourage went into exile to Dharamsala in India, the Cultural Revolution raged in Tibet. Between 1966 and 1976, thousands of monasteries and cultural monuments were destroyed. Switzerland was the first European country which, in 1961, accepted Tibetan refugees and offered them accommodation and work in Rikon. In 1967, the monastic Tibet Institute was opened. The information from the Dalai Lama and Tibet supporters is often not credible with regards to the Chinese occupancy. Very often it is not mentioned that in the meantime approximately half of the monasteries have been restored and are running again. Also, since the mid-nineties, you can no longer claim that there is a ban on the monastic system. If the Dalai Lama is asked about these things he replies that the monasteries have only been rebuilt for the sake of tourists; thus the Chinese are said to have no interest in maintaining the traditional culture but to re-install it as exotic backdrop and in this way it is being doomed even more. One limitation however has been enforced, undoubtedly against the will of the Dalai Lama: no more children can enter the monasteries. Also in his autobiography, ‘His Holiness’ claims that, due to resettlement programmes, the Chinese proportion of the population overrides the Tibetans. According to the disputed census in 2000, the proportion of Chinese people within the Tibetan Autonomous Region is 6.1%, with the highest proportion, 17%, being in Lhasa. Again and again the claim has been spread that 1.2 million Tibetans had become victims of Chinese terror, in other words a full fifth of the population. Official statements from Dharamsala even sometimes say that all of these have been Tibetan prisoners who were victims of torture or executions, and very often Chinese concentration camps are mentioned. Without doubt, China is far away from regular constitutional affairs; however the charge of systematic, lethal torture of thousands — as indicated by the term ‘concentration camp’ — is hardly plausible.
Esoteric argy bargy
Towards the end of the 1980s there were again riots in Tibet, and in December 1989 the Dalai Lama received the Nobel Peace Price. About one year before that he became friends with the Japanese Shoko Asahara, who ran a ’spiritual community’ with several thousand followers near Tokyo. According to the researches of the publisher Colin Goldner, Ashara visited with the Dalai Lama several times in 1988. This community with their ‘appreciated aims and activities’ (said the Dalai Lama) was ‘Aum’, one of the most dangerous and totalitarian cults ever, which performed the Tokyo subway poison attacks in March 1995. The Japanese authorities had been patient with the megalomaniac Guru, despite all warnings, possibly due to the protecting hands of the Dalai Lama. When the Centres after the Sarin attack were finally searched, there were deposits of chemical and other weapons which could have killed millions of people at once. The Dalai Lama however could not even find one single word of regret. Even as late as Summer 1995, when at the Peace University in Berlin, he stated that he would recognize Asahara as a ‘friend, even though not necessarily an unmistaken one’.
Also the so-called ‘Shugden affair’ gives rise to doubts about the much-praised wisdom of the Dalai Lama. In Summer 1996, upon the advice of his state oracle, he banned the worship of the protector Deity Dorje Shugden for his people. A number of abbots and monks protested against this ban. They accused the Dalai Lama of violating religious freedom, who reacted to this insubordination by systematic searches of houses and monasteries in the exile community. Shugden statues were destroyed and renitent monks bashed and beaten. Supporter committees even claimed that the Shugden movement was hand in glove with China.
[Mentions the triple murder. More information about that can be found here: Defamatory accusations of murder repeated over and over again for ten years]
Monks armed with iron bars
Generally, the riots before the Olympic Games were presented by the Western media in a way that they fitted into the image of ‘peace-loving Tibetans’’ — either any violence was supposedly coming from the side of the Chinese, or, if not, claims were made to the effect that Tibetan protesters had only acted in self-defence. Footage documentation and reports from eye-witnesses however give evidence of how monks armed with iron bars and bats went marauding through the historic quarter of town. Buses and cars were pushed over and set on fire, and Chinese shops and houses were pillaged. Molotov cocktails were even thrown into kindergartens, schools and hospitals. The Dalai Lama later claimed that the monks had been Chinese soldiers in disguise. This is because, by definition, Tibetans are non-violent. Around the world, demonstrations of solidarity took place.
[The rest is about the Dalai Lama’s right-wing tendencies and the stories about the liaisons between Tibetans and the Nazis and how the Tibetan regent wrote a letter to 'King Hitler'. The final paragraph is on the question why it is that the Dalai Lama is so popular in the West in spite of all the facts mentioned; and the main conclusion is that it is because Westerners are so naive.]
30-03-2009 18:29:56 °878 —
extracted from Guestbook of http://www.dorjeshugden.com
As you can see by the torrent of pro-Shugden posts here, content generation under various namesonly proves my point. Some or all of these names are false: generally in Chinese 50-center attacks there are Anglo Saxon names, a phony Tibetan (the sinocised spelling is a giveaway) and perhaps a few other ethnicities to try and overwhelm free expression of opinion.( BTW: Ms Toner, your cartridge is empty),
WSS, front for NKT fanatic monks, has published material like the following:
‘All these horrible situations have developed through the power of your evil actions. This is our valid evidence to prove that you are not Buddhist. Because of this, we also believe that you are the saffron robed Muslim.
Throughout your life you have pretended to be a Buddhist holy being giving Buddhist teachings that you have stolen from Trijang Rinpoche. By doing this, you have cheated people throughout the world. In summary, it is clear that your real nature is cruel and very evil.”
This is extremist nonsense that only polarises the community and feeds the Chinese regime’s campaign to eradicate Tibetan independence.
Again do not visit the Shugden websites, they are not safe!
Oh and “Jack Weisenberger” for sure, throw in a Jewish name for added believability….we’ve seen all these stupid amateur PR tricks many times, give it a rest, WSS
Tsarong Tashi Pelbar: I’m also Tibetan and live in Canada, we have a directory of Tibetans maybe I’ll look you up. I have heard of Tsarong
Dasang Dadul, the first commander in chief of Tibet’s modern army who died in a Chinese prison, your uncle perhaps?
Tsering Yangzon Drokar, unusual English spelling of your name, unique I would say.
In the old days PR agencies, lobbyists even political parties would type letters using different fonts on different kinds of paper purporting to represent diverse ethnicities targeted to key decision-makers and stakeholders to give the illusion of a groundswell of popular opinion– its so much easier now to assume multiple false identities and flood cyberspace, even a tiny whacko fringe group like WSS especially if they work hard, with help of the estimated 280,000 full time PRC ‘content-generators’ can cover the globe in, um, stuff.
Shugden websites are running a communist chinese Xinua story claiming the below video is faked. I suppose the handcuffed Tibetan Buddhists shown brutally beaten by Chinese security forces are paid actors. At this forum Lineageholder (aka Neil Elliot) has cynically expressed doubt of the film’s authenticity, but then what do you expect from someone who displays all the classic symptoms of sociopathy?
The point is: the link between WSS/NKT and Chinese policy is crystal clear, avoid their sites like the plague, its virtually guaranteed their sites are infected!
This film not intended as a definitive document is ample evidence of agregeous human rights violations that warrant the investigation of Amnesty International, (who incidentally found no evidence suppression of Shugden cultists in India) Anyway, you can make up your own mind about this video:
http://media.phayul.com/?av_id=147&av_links_id=323
Not THE Neil Elliot? Dude, what happened to you, I thought you were like Number 2, the golden child… Tantric practitioner and all that, guess you kind of got caught with your shantab down, eh buddy? Sorry I’ve always wondered..do wear briefs under that getup? Anyway, I just thought I’d let readers in on what is being said about the NKT cult on another thread here. Cheers, mate.
“The sexual abuse that kelsang gyatso’s senior students perpetrated was covered up and the man most responsible for spreading this ’sexual lineage’, Neil Elliot, now has a key role in organising the WSS protests against the Dalai Lama. Elliot, along with Lucy James have also been responsible for waging the on-line NKT smear campaign against the Dalai Lama and Tibetan Buddhism.
Lineageholder might actually be Neil Elliot, who sexually abused his attendent, Ali Ramsey for years. When news of Elliot’s activities came to light it was swept under the carpet for more years. It was only when he was found to be abusing his new attendents in the same way that he was actually asked by kelsang to disrobe, and only after Ramsey, seeking closure after years of therapy, said she would go the media with her story if he didn’t.
When news of Samden’s abuse came to light, Kelsang had already been told about it two years earlier. A letter to Kelsang told how Samden encouraged its writer, one young NKT ‘monk’, to have a sexual relataionship with a NKT ‘nun’. The monk believed that this nun had also been sexually active with Samden though he could not prove it. He did however know that Samden was encouraging this sexual activity and that that nun was involved. Kelsang did nothing about this. A couple of years later he even promoted this nun to being the resident teacher of the important Bodhisattva Centre in Brighton. Predictably, this nun broke her vows again by engaging in a sexual relationship with a man from the centre who was actually married to another nun that lived there.
“Kelsang allowed Samden to stay on as a ‘monk’ and teacher for years after hearing that Samden encouraged sexual activity amongst his students. He was finally forced to leave when news of his sexual activity surfaced on e-sangha.”
Dear Tsarong Tashi Pelbar: I looked you up in the Tibetan directory and oddly you are not listed there. I have connections to Lithang elders as well, and so far no one has ever heard of you which is quite strange, don’t you think?. I don’t suppose you have another name, perhaps a Han name? Just curious. I really would like to meet you since we have so much in common and you seem to be a wonderful storyteller. Where are you living in Canada, jola?
Dear Gyalpo,
This issue is not about whether I am real or not. I am real.
This issue is that I am a Canadian Citizen and I can practice what I want. I AM TIBETAN AND I AM PROUD. I respect H.H. the Dalai Lama but I cannot give up my practice because I made a commitment to my tsaway Lama Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang Jetsun Lobsang Yeshe Tenzing Gyatso Pelsangpo.
Even the current Trijang Rinpoche residing in the USA has been given permission to practice Dorje Shugden.
Below is the clip in which H.H. is fine with the current Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche to practice Dorje Shugden again.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWi1fJkTA9Q)
As in regards to your Tibetan Directory, there are those that wish to register and there are those that wish not to. Canada is a very large country. I choose not to as to stay away from my own ppl who will criticize me.
As for the spelling of my name, there is no precise science to convert the exact Tibetan letters/sounds into english. Your name can be spelled Gyelpo, Gyalpo or Gyepo, depending on our dialect of our Tibetan mother tongue. Kampa, amdo, Lhasa pronounciation of your name would be different.
What is your full name and what is the point to check who you or who I am. Whoever you wish to not believe, I am, I am a citizen of the world and I can express my thoughts. Please respect. Because whatever you wrote, I didn’t criticize. I only wrote my thoughts to everyone only. I am sorry it offends you.
Tashi Delek Punsumtsok to you
Tsarong Tashi Pelbar
I think it’s sad that all the anti-Shugden people can do on this list is sound spiteful and extreme. You’re doing us a great service by appearing so unreasonable, thanks very much.
The Dalai Lama is being hypocritical in banning the practice of Dorje Shugden for very selfish and trivial reasons, that’s the fact of the matter.
Kelsang Gyatso,
Why would a Jewish name make it more believable?? That doesn’t make sense.
BY THE WAY, I AM OF GERMAN/AUSTRIAN DESCENT FOR YOUR INFORMATION NOT OF JEWISH DESCENT.
I was interested in Buddhism. And I am proud of it. You are the first person to accuse me of just using a Jewish name for ‘believability??’
But when I read your rude, un-Buddhist reactions, you represent Dalai Lama very badly. You represent your Buddhist faith incorrectly. Remember you are supposodly defending the Dalai Lama, a man of peace, love and compassion. Are you representing him well?
And your a former Geshe?? Does that mean you have DISROBED AND GIVEN UP YOUR VOWS OR SOMETHING?
JACK WEISENBERGER
It is incredible that all the people who are anti-shugden write such nasty, vulgar and accusational comments. Where is your compassion?
H.H. the Dalai Lama teaches tolerance. Why don’t all of you practice tolerance not just his teachings on avoiding Shugden. Don’t be selective and just practice what suits you.
We live in the USA and here we can PRACTICE WHATEVER WE WANT. GET USE TO IT ALREADY. THIS IS NOT TIBET.
That is very sad. Because muslims, jews, christians, sikhs, hindus, new age ppl, devil worshippers in the US, mormons, amish, atheists, black, white, yellow, red, brown, male and female, religious and non religious, pro-China and Anti-China people all can attend his kalacakara ceremonies, talks and teachings. ONLY DORJE SHUGDEN PRACTITIONERS MAY NOT.
Why are we the only people that may not attend???–EXTRACTED FROM THE ABOVE POST.
I like what Tsering Yangzon Drokar says-april 1, 2009.
WHY IS IT THAT EVERYONE IN THE WORLD MAY JOIN WITH ANY CEREMONIES THAT DALAI LAMA GIVES EXCEPT SHUGDEN PRACTITIONERS??? THAT DOESN’T MAKE SENSE TO ME. SHOULDN’T THE MAN OF PEACE, THE DALAI LAMA LOVE AND ACCEPT ALL??
Jack, chill, I don’t represent anyone any more than you represent HH the Pope. so take it easy. However I do think if a group of foreigners started spreading malicious lies and stories about the Pope, Italians and I daresay even some non-catholic Germans would get upset, don’t you think that would be rude and inapprpriate? Its just something one does not do.
CURRENT INCARNATION OF TRIJANG RINPOCHE IS ALLOWED TO PRACTICE DORJE SHUGDEN IN HIS PERSONAL PRACTICE. HH THE DALAI LAMA HAS ALLOWED IT. AND ALLOW HIM TO ATTEND HIS TEACHINGS/CEREMONIES.
SO IF SHUGDEN IS SO EVIL, WHY IS IT TRIJANG RINPOCHE’S CURRENT INCARNATION CAN PRACTICE. SHOULDN’T HE BE NOT ALLOWED ALSO?
THE UTUBE ADDRESS FOR THIS IS POSTED ABOVE AND I CHECKED IT OUT.
Tsarong Tashi Pelbar: I will find out if you are real or not, rest assured. This would not be the first time a phony Tibetan has posted pro-Chinese stories, would it?
The usual tactic of Chinese posters–to start on online riot until the moderator shuts down the discussion. The hallmark anger and abusiveness is already present.
I hope tibetans get freedom, but this conspiracy theory by gyalpo April 2nd, 2009 seems far-fetched. And the pursuit of it will get you nowhere. Have realistic goals.
It is well known that China hates Dalai Lama. Accept it.
Dalai Lama is getting very old and after he passes, the fate of the Tibetans in Tibet is up to the Chinese. So it would be better to start making peace and friends with the Chinese and don’t irritate them more.
Even the Dalai Lama has given up all hopes of Independent Tibet which he talked about for decades. Then the last two decades he talks about autonomy. Recently, he said he failed in achieving autonomy also,so he is asking his people what to do. You can search on youtube for this statement.
So it would be best for the Tibetans to forget about all the religious issues such as shugden, and let people worship what they want, and concentrate on making peace, friendship and communications with the Chinese govt for the sake of the Tibetans within Tibet.
There is no way any Democratic Govt will go all the way for the Tibetan cause. Economy is more important. That is the fact. China is too powerful to fight by violent means, demonstrations or irritating them further.
So while the Dalai Lama is alive, it would be good to make peace, and maybe before he passes away, he can visit Tibet and make millions happy one last time in Tibet.
Good luck with Trijang Chocktrul, he stopped studying since childhood, preferring to drive fast cars in Europe and has now settled with his wife in Ari, he’s already loaded, so why study?
Whatever the Dalai Lama says. Whatever the few thousand Tibetans protestors may say, I will respect Dorje Shugden’s practice.
After the Dalai Lama passes away, which is in a few years time, the Tibetans in Tibet become Chinese. The Tibetans abroard gets sucked into making money and absorbed into the culture of their host country.
The practice of Dorje Shugden that has been established in Democratic free countries in the world will flourish, grow, expand and multiply. There is nothing the Dalai lama or a few thousand Tibetans can do TO EVER STOP THAT.
Hitler killed 6 million jews, but jews still practice their faith and have their own Israeli state now. They could not be obliterated.
Catholics banned the protestants in England of the past, now the English practice what they want under a democratic govt.
Puritans/quakers sailed from England to the New World for religious freedom and now the Constitution of the United States gives 100% percent freedom of worship to all its citizens.
The Romans crucified Jesus to eliminate his sect and after his death it has become a world religions for billions.
So Shugdens practice will grow and become bigger no matter what supression is done. It is just for a few more years that this supression will go on then all surpressions or ill will against Dorje Shugden’s practice will fade away.
Trijang Choktrul is kinda of like the 6th Dalai Lama Tsanyang Gyatso?? Tsanyang Gyatso liked beer pubs in Lhasa, women, horses, and archery. He disrobed too. But his romantic poems are studied by the great lamas now still and very much respected as the true incarnation of the Dalai lama.
Read his bio man!
Hey Neil,
I think it is cool that the current Trijang is married, has a fast car and is loaded. He must have alot of sponsors he benefitted that has great faith in him to give him all that.
He hasn’t stopped studying. He has two resident Geshes in Trijang Institute tutoring him daily.
What a modern way to approach materialistic Americans though.. Trijang is really skillful.
Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche had a sport car imported over to Rumtek Monastery, Sikkim, North India in the late 80’s and he was speeding there and crashed into a tree and died. He liked fast cars too. But, his incarnation is back and in action again.
So it seems this highly realized mahasiddhas such as Jamgon Kongtrul, 6th Dalai Lama Tsangyang and Trijang Choktrul are quite accomplished no matter what their appearances show. So I don’t think they need any of our luck.
We obviously have been invaded by
1) Angry communist cowards
2) Angry western loonie WSS/NKT cultists
or 3) both, “man”. Quantity is not quality, this is in no way a proper debate, good evening, losers. Go troll some other thread.
Gyalpo,
What is your full name??
You can check if I am real or not. Nobody cares! Keep checking.
But one thing for sure, I WILL PRACTICE DORJE SHUGDEN FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE AND I WILL USE THE PRAYER THAT THE 14TH DALAI LAMA WROTE PRAISING SHUGDEN.
long live Dalai Lama, long live Tibet, long live Dorje Shugden!!
Free Choice: Try the freedom of religion you get in China– an electric cattle prod up the rectum, ask Falun Gong the freedom you will enjoy there.
MELODY OF THE UNCEASING VAJRA
A Propitiation of Mighty Gyalchen Dorje Shugden,
Protector of Conqueror Manjusri Tsongkhapa’s Teachings
(Written By the Supreme Victor, the His Holiness the Great 14th Dalai Lama)
HUM
Glory of the wisdom, compassion and power of infinite Buddhas
Miraculously powerful protector of Manjusri Tsongkhapa’s Teachings
Arisen as a lord of all wrathful worldly hosts
Come from the abodes of Tushita, Kechara, and so forth!
Prostrating with devotion of body, speech, and mind
I confess all mistakes and faults in which
Out of delusion, I have contradicted your holy mind:
Accept with forbearance and show your smiling face!
Arising from the sport of non-dual bliss and void
Are offerings and torma of flesh and blood heaped like a mountain
First portions of milk, yogurt, beer and tea swirling like the ocean
Auspicious signs and substances and various animals
Peaceful and wrathful ornaments, enemy-destroying weapons and armor
Amassed samaya substances, outer, inner, and secret, without exception!
Having fulfilled your heart commitment and purified degeneration
By making these actually arranged and visualized offerings
Increase Lozang the Victorious One’s Teachings
And the life span and activities of the Teachings’ upholders!
Further the happiness of beings in the Gaden [Podrang] dominion!
Especially pacify all harm to us, the yogis and entourages
That arises because of previous karma and immediate conditions
And spontaneously accomplish, just as we wish
All good things, both spiritual and temporal!
Grind to dust without remainder
Enemy hordes that think and act perversely
Towards the teachings and lay and ordained people
With potent, accurate, powerful great vajra fire!
Especially, cause the saffron-clad community of Dungkar Monastery
Brightly beautiful in bonds of pure morality
To soar the path of immortal liberation
On unified wings of Sutra and Tantra!
In brief, we enthrone you, O Deity, as the supreme
Collected nature of all Gurus and Protective Deities!
From densely gathered clouds of the four activities
Pour down a cool rain of the two siddhis!
This, A Propitiation of Mighty Gyalchen Dorje Shugden, Protector of Conqueror Manjusri Tsongkhapa’s Teachings, entitled Melody of the Unceasing Vajra ’s composition was urged, not only by the vajra prophecy of the great emanated Dharmapala himself, but also on behalf of the general community by the master of the Dratsang and all of its officers, with offerings. Accordingly, the one called Holder Of The White Lotus, Bearer of the Buddhadharma, Ngawang Losang Tenzin Gyatso Sisum Wangyur Tsungpa Mepa De composed it at Dungkar Monastery with spontaneous auspiciousness.
All benefit and bliss! Siddhi Rastu
Domo Geshe Rinpoche, at whose Dunkar Monastery His Holiness composed these inspiring verses, was one of the greatest Mahasiddhas in Tibetan history. A greater example of saintliness and, mind you, non-sectarian compassion would be hard to find. Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang said of him, “We are exactly the same”, and Domo Geshe put his Monasteries in Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche’s care before he passed on. The 13 th Dalai Lama praised him as Je Tsongkhapa incarnate. Both the 13 th and the 14 th Dalai Lama praised Dungkar Monastery’s oracle, through which they obtained very valuable advice in difficult times.
This prayer shows beyond the shadow of a doubt the enlightened origin and the “holy mind” of the King Protector as seen by His Holiness. No “ghost” can come from Tushita and Kechara, Maitreya and Vajrayogini’s pureland. No “ghost” can cause you to “soar the path of immortal liberation on unified wings of Sutra and Tantra”!
Praise of the protector Dorje Shugden
composed by the great Sakyapa master
Kunkhyen Ngawang Kunga Lodroe
(an excerpt from the Dorje Shugden prayer called
duelzin choe ki gyalpo choepai choka phuentsog doe gu yong khil she jawa)
At the early time, entering into the teaching of the Tathagata,
you rose in the form of Vinaya-holding Bhikshu,
thus you protect all the teachings of the Sravaka-Pitaka without exception,
I prostrate to you.
In the middle, in front of many Buddhas and Bodhisattvas,
having generated the aspiring and entering Bodhicitta,
you obtained the prophecy as a protector of the teaching of the Dharma,
thus you protect all the teachings of the Bodhisattvas without exception, to you I prostrate.
In the great mandala of the ocean of Tantras,
initiated by Vajradhara, and receiving the samayas,
thus you protect all the teachings of the profound Tantra without exception,
to you I prostrate.
In particular in this northern land, surrounded by a range of snow mountains,
though not directly pervaded by the sun of the Buddha, yet sustained by his compassion,
you are the protector of all those perfect schools of Dharma,
I prostrate to you.
All the great holders of the teaching, who comment according to one’s own views,
the entire Tripitakas, the Tantras and their commentaries,
you are the very protector of all the holders of the Dharma,
acting as the fulfiller of the words of those leaders, I prostrate to you.
The legacy of the pandits, translators, dharma kings and ministers,
all the temples constructed by them,
you are the protector of all those seats of the Sangha without exception,
I prostrate to you.
For entire Tibet, included in upper region Ngari, central region Ue-tsang, and lower region Dokham,
you act as the very protector, refuge, supporter, and friend of all people without exception,
thus you are the very god of the snow-land country,
I prostrate to you.
The great protector of all the Buddhas of this fortunate aeon,
who is the eliminator of all the forces of unsuitable Mara,
some day through showing full enlightenment as Samyaksambuddha,
you will fulfil the deed of a Tathagata, to you I prostrate.
In short, in all three times, uninterruptedly,
with your infinite secrets of body speech and mind,
all those beings who are wandering in the ocean of the cycle,
you give them the perfect state of liberation, to you I prostrate.
Thus by the power of venerating you with this ocean of melodious praise,
through generating delight, compassion, and benevolent force of your mind,
please fulfil the activity for increasing of virtues, pacifying of disfavourable interferences,
and accomplishment of all the purposes in accordance to Dharma.
REQUEST FOR ACTIVITY OF GYALCHEN SHUGDEN
A universal world peace prayer for all, composed by HIS HOLINESS THE SUPREME KYABJE YONGZIN TRIJANG DORJE CHANG, the tutor to the 14th Dalai Lama.
Just thinking of you clears all obstacles
Mighty Gyalchen Shugden who accomplishes activities
Accept this oceanic torma offering of samaya substances
And accomplish the activities I request!
Plant the victory banner of learning and practice
Of Buddha’s general Teachings and particularly
Tsongkhapa’s excellent system,
Foundation of all aid and comfort for the three realms’ beings,
Unmoved by winds of evil, throughout the ten directions!
Clear all darkness throughout the world, harm of the four elements,
Disease, epidemics, war and violence,
Famine and all decay of degeneration
And spread happy auspicious illumination everywhere!
In particular, O Lord of Dharma Guardians,
We yogis who have long relied upon and honored you,
Entrust everything, including the actions of our three doors
To you from our hearts, protect us without break,
Evaporate plagues, sickness, demons, obstructions,
Misfortune, fatal astrological configurations, spirits and obstructers,
All outer and inner unwanted bad conditions without exception,
Like dew touched by the rays of the sun!
Bring increase of all virtue, goodness and glory of existence and peace,
Long life, merit, all desired wealth and enjoyment,
Realization of the three principal paths,
yogas of the two stages and so forth
Vying in increase with the waxing moon!
Meaningful Controller, with your hook, draw in the good fortune
Of concordant conditions to accomplish all spiritual and temporal good
For the sake of the Teachings and beings, the great purpose, and so on,
And all requisites and wealth of proud devas and humans.
With irreversible blazing sharp razor weapons
Pulverize and take as food the life and breath
Of human beings, non-humans and spirits
Who cause direct and indirect harm, without exception.
Pacify all hindrances and obstacles to activities
For accomplishing our deepest heart-felt wishes!
Reveal signs of enlightening action, swift as lightning
Ripening full measure of our hopes and wishes!
In brief, always accompany us, the yogis,
Inseparably, like our body’s shadow,
Watch over us with your wisdom eye without break;
Bestow your protective activities, mighty Shugden!
PRAYER BY THE GREATH FIFTH DALAI LAMA,
HIS HOLINESS JETSUN NGAWANG LOBSANG GYATSO PELSANGPO
TO GYELCHEN DORJE SHUGDEN
HUM
Though unmoving from the sphere of primordial spontaneity,
With wrathful turbulent power, swifter than lightning,
Endowed with heroic courage to judge good and bad,
I invite you with faith, please come to this place!
Robes of a monk, crown adorned with rhinocerous leather hat,
Right hand holds ornate club, left holds a human heart,
Riding various mounts such as nagas and garudas,
Who subdues the mamo’s of the charnal grounds, praise to you!
Samaya substances, offerings and torma, outer, inner and secret,
Favorite visual offerings and various objects are arranged.
Although, previously, my wishes were a bit dense,
Do not stop your powerful apparitions, I reveal and confess!
Now respectfully praising with body, speech, and mind,
For us, the masters, disciples, benefactors and entourages,
Provide the good and avert the bad!
Bring increase like the waxing moon in spiritual and temporal realms!
Moreover, swiftly accomplishing all wishes,
According to our prayers, bestow the supreme effortlessly!
And like the jewel that bestows all wishes,
Always protect us with the Three Jewels!
Even the composition of this short praise and propitiation brought benefit to many people to remove obstacles.
HIS HOLINESS THE FIFTH DALAI LAMA WROTE THIS PROPITIATION AFTER REALIZING THAT DORJE SHUGDEN WAS NOT A HARMFUL SPIRIT, AS HE HAD FIRST ASSUMED BECAUSE OF THE DISTURBING APPEARANCES THAT MANIFESTED AFTER TULKU DRAKPA GYALTSEN’S DEATH.
AS KYABJE TRIJANG DORJE CHANG EXPLAINS, SUCH DISPLAYS AS THAT OF TRYING UNSUCCESSFULLY TO SUBDUE THE DHARMAPALA, SERVE TO BRING OUT THE GREATNESS IN BOTH THE DALAI LAMA AND DORJE SHUGDEN WHO, IN THE PROCESS, SHOWED HIS HAVING MASTERED GUYASAMAJA’S TWO STAGES, AMONGST OTHER SIGNS.
THE GREAT FIFTH NOT ONLY WROTE THIS PRAYER, BUT EVEN CRAFTED A FAMOUS AND STILL-EXISTING STATUE OF DORJE SHUGDEN WITH HIS OWN HANDS WHICH IS IN PELGYELING MONASTERY, NEPAL. THE GREAT FIFTH ALSO BUILT TRODE KHANGSAR CHAPEL TO DORJE SHUGDEN IN LHASA WHICH STILL EXISTS TODAY IN LHASA AND MANY PILGRIMS VISIT NOW. MY FATHER HAS OFTEN VISITED BEFORE 1959.
hey neil,
Dont put down Trijang Rinpoche’s current incarnation. You will hurt many ppls sentiments. What good does that do?
If wish to debate, be polite, be accurate and use methods that are kinder.
Fierce collection of all power and capability, clothed in blue,
Showing in the form of a dregs to subdue the unsuitable,
Magic-wielding Dorje Shugden and retinue,
I respectfully prostrate with my body, speech and mind.
by Kyabje Serkong Dorje Chang of Gaden Jangtse Monastery
‘Jam mgon rgyal ba’i bstan srung Rdo-rje Shugs-ldan rtsal chen po’i bsangs mchod [dge legs mchog stsol] bzhugs
Sang (incense) Offering to Gyelchen Dorje Shugden
At the time of wanting to make a sang offering, collect the incense substances; repeat the refuge and bodhi mind generation verses three times.
Hum, visualizing myself as the yidam, from the heart,
Light emanates clearing all faults from incense,
Scent having the five desirable qualities complete in perfection,
Granting uncontaminated bliss fills the extent of awareness.
Om Ah Hum (repeat as many times to bless)
Hum, Root and lineages gurus, Three Jewels,
Dakas, Dakinis and Dharma Protectors,
Especially Dorje Shugden and retinue,
By boundless magical power come here.
Also, birth, warrior and patron deities
Local deities, spirits and guardians with the eight classes,
Assembly of guests worthy of offering please come here.
Each happily dwelling on their seats
For the sake of fulfilling the yogi’s entrusted activities
Outer, inner clouds of offerings, commitment substances and presents,
Accept these and accomplish the entrusted activities.
Kye!
Agar, sandalwood, six medicinal ingredients14 and plants,
By the smoke cloud from the burning wisdom fire
Completely filling the sky
Purifies the root and lineage lamas, yidams and Three Jewels.
Purifies the dakas, dakinis and dharma protectors.
Purifies especially the Chief Dharma Protector of Conqueror Manjunatha
Dorje Shugden and four cardinal emanations.
Purifies birth, war and five patron gods.
Purifies local deities, spirits, guardians and the eight classes.
By the power of offering incense to worthy guests
May all obscurations of quarrel and samaya be purified.
May lifespan, merit and power all increase.
Pacify all diseases to humans and animals, famine, war and dispute.
May the crops be good and the rain be timely.
Conquer classes of demons of the dark side, increase the positive,
And having befriended spontaneously and effortlessly
Attain all goals just as wished.
Ki ki so so, Lha gyel lo!
Hum! Being pleased and satisfied, guests return to their abodes
Returning again upon request for activities.
By this virtue may I myself and all mother beings
Have perpetual auspiciousness of happiness and benefit.
This bsang offering bestowing excellence was composed by the yellow hat lineage holder bearing the reincarnation name Ganden Jangtze Serkong Dorje Chang.
This particular publication was published at Buxa, West Bengal in India, in 1967 where the first center to preserve education for reincarnate lamas was established after everything in Tibet was lost. In particular, this publication of the ritual was requested by the Gyalchen monthly ritual group of Zong Rinpoche.
This is a short summary of his vast activities. Also in 1808, he departed for Amarbayasgalant monastery. Then he started construction on two Tsanid temples at Khuree.11 Dorje Shugden is one of the main protectors of Amarbayasgalant monastery and the remains of the Fourth Jetsundampa were kept here.12 Thus, he worked diligently to establish monasteries. The short torma offering translated below was included in one these colleges founded by the Fourth Jetsun Dampa. It is included in the catalog of Lobsang Tamdin’s be bum introduction.13
Om, glorious deity of Shambhala,
Three world’s ruler Red Faced One,14
Protectors of Loseling’s scholars,
Including Dorje Shugden come here.
Pleasing, harmony producing samaya substances,
Especially mansions, red and white tormas,
A mountain of flesh and bones as vast as the ocean,
Including all objects of desire I offer.
Partaking with enjoyment, study, listening, meditation,
Virtues of theory and practice, please increase.
Increase favorable conditions, remove unfavorable conditions,
Assist us on the path of wisdom and compassion.
For the monks possessing the three trainings, may there be auspiciousness.
As for this, it was written by Thubten Wangchug Jigme Gyatso when this college was first founded.
Offerings, Praises, Fulfillment and Requests to the Dharmapala Dorje Shugden by Kyabje Dragri Dorje Chang
Hum
Lobsang Dragpa, essence of the ocean of mandalas,
Three precious yidams’ mandala attendants,
Especially the principal of the potent dregs,
Dorje Shugden and retinue consider me.
Recklessly drunk from the three poisons,
Accumulated downfalls by nature and transgression
The limits of faultless precepts and commandments,
With an ailing and repenting mind I confess.
Pervasive guru present in the 10 directions,
Peaceful and wrathful Yidams established by the Jina,
Oath bound protectors of the Secret Vehicle,
From my heart I lay bare all samaya transgressions.
Displeasing, disrespect, reproach and wrong view toward
The Glorious Guru Vajradhara,
In the presence of the Yidams and Protectors having the wisdom eye,
I confess all lack of faith.
Especially to life ruler of the Dregs,
Forgotten, broken and inferior offering tormas,
To the protector performing the four activities
I confess all broken thanksgiving service tormas.
Carelessness of what ought to be accepted and rejected,
The root and secondary [precepts] of body, speech and mind,
To the listening protectors and retinue,
With a regretful mind I confess these faults.
Primordial, naturally pure Dharmakaya,
Free from all conceptual elaboration,
May all faults written with the pen of conceptualization,
Be purified within the sphere of emptiness.
Concludes the short prayer to Lord Dorje Shugden.
This is the confessional prayer section taken from Dragri Dorje Chang Jetsun Gyatso Thaye’s (Sera Je college) longer work called Treasury of the Four Activities:
Praise To Dorje Shugden by Khangsar Dorje Chang
From the bliss-void union jewel palace,
Majestically posed on a fearless lion,
Sole refuge Manjushrigarbha’s Dharma protector,
Wondrous Dorje Shugden Tsel,
Appearing with a monk’s attire
In saffron dyed Benares muslin,
From your vajra palace dwellings
Come here to accomplish my activities.
In such end-times you promised to protect
The essence of the Tathagatha’s doctrine,
Now accomplish what I entrust to you
And protect me from premature death and decline.
The yellow hats’ essential doctrine of the middle way,
Definite emergence from samsara, bodhicitta,
Quickly accomplishing with great fortitude,
Perform activities for developing these amazing realizations.
The above composed by: Trehor Khangsar Rinpoche who was the holder of the Ganzi monastery seat. This particular incarnation, Lobsang Tsultrim Tenpai Gyaltsen, was born in Ganzi as well. When he was young, he travelled to Lhasa and entered Drepung Loseling College. There he studied the five great classic texts (gzhung chen bka’ pod lnga). Later, he became the abbot of Gyumed tantric college at the time of the Thirteenth Dalai Lama, Thubten Gyatso. For that reason, he came to be called Trehor Khangsar Lobsang Tsultrim.
One of his main students was Jampa Choedak, the 90th Ganden Tripa (1920-1926), who was also from the Trehor region.2 He wrote a biography (rnam thar) about Trehor Khangsar Rinpoche, recently republished in 2003 by the Drepung Loseling Library Society (Mundgod, N.K., Karnataka). Pabongkha Dechen Nyingpo was a student of Trehor Khangsar Rinpoche as well, from whom he received teachings including the complete initiation, transmission and explanation of Naro Dakini (Vajrayogini) in the tradition of Ngulchu Dharmabhadra.
Tsarong Tashi Pelbar: Stop spamming with meaningless drivel, now I’m sure your a phony
I have posted here prayers to Gyelchen Dorje Shugden written by some very great eminent Masters of the past. I have only touched the tip of the iceberg of the amount of works, commentaries, prayers, pujas, rituals, meditations, and fire pujas (jinsek) by so many great masters beyond count. No minor deity would be so written about.
Dorje Shugden has been the heart protector of so many of Tibet’s greatest masters, scholars and yogis. He has been practiced for over 350 years in Gaden, Sera, Drepung, Tashi Lhunpo, Nechung, Amdo Tashi Kyil Monastery, Kumbum, etc. This is just to name a few. Many whole regions and provinces were dedicated to him as their personal deity.
He was not, is not a minor deity that only a few practice. His practice was huge and widespread in Tibet prior to 1959 in Tibet. It all started during the time of the 5th Dalai Lama up till now.
Gen Hur,
I am not spamming. I have the freedom to post whatever I like just like you do.
I have posted very incredibly holy prayers to Gyelchen Dorje Shugden by the most immenent masters of my country. So the prayers writtent to Dorje Shugden by H.H. the Great 5th Dalai Lama and H.H. the 14th Dalai Lama are NOT DRIVEL. Do not criticize His Holiness’s writing to win a point. Be polite.
I am proud. Long live Tibet. Long Live Dalai Lama. Long Live Dorje Shugden.
Dorje Shugden Chenpo la Chaktselo!
To King Dorje Shugden by Kyabje Tritul Tenpa Rabgye (1759-1815) of Sera Je Monastery and Gyume Tantric Monastery
Hum
Although unmoving from the wisdom Dharmakaya,
To tame evil displaying wrathful forms,
Liberation Ging and Eight Sword Wielding Butchers,
Come here with your ocean-like assembly!
Armed with strong, powerful flames,
Obstructor-enemy liberator Dorje Legpa,
Great powerful protector of the Buddhadharma,
Gyalchen Dorje Shugden and retinue come here!
Although unmoving from the peaceful Dharmadhatu,
Manifesting as wrathful Dorje Shugden Tsel,
Red bodied holding a Dorje in right hand,
And a black lasso in the left hand, [to you I] praise.
Amitabha’s manifestation Setrapchen,
Lord of Secrets emanation Dorje Shugden Tsel,
Especially the powerful Ne’u Naga’s
Commander Blazing Demon Subduer come here!
This is followed by requests for peaceful, increasing, powerful and wrathful action. This is then followed by a short request for fulfillment. Next are individual verses of praise. This is very interesting because it appears to be one of the few Gelug texts that actually mentions Dorje Shugden riding a horse, which was a more popular form in the Sakya tradition. Also, the second two lines seem to refer to the peaceful emanation of Dorje Shugden, who is white riding an elephant.
From the inseparable play of bliss and void,
Magical Dorje Shugden on a black horse,
Gleaming like a snow mountain, extremely wrathful,
Praise to you wearing white scarfs and a headdress.
Tritul Tenpa Rabgye (1759-1815), the reincarnation of Trichen Ngawang Chogden, was born in Lithang, Kham in 1759. At age 2, he requested the Litang abbot Phuntsog Gyatso for Vajravidarana purification. At age 6, he was recognized as the reincarnation of Trichen Ngawang Chogden.
He took ordination from Panchen Rinpoche, Palden Yeshe, and at age 10 received from him initiations and teachings such as Guhyasamaja and Heruka. He entered Sera Je monastery and studied the Five Great Subjects and received the Geshe Lharampa degree. He received full ordination from Panchen Palden Yeshe and entered Gyumed Tantric College. He then resided at Zhide Samten Ling in Lhasa. He served as tutor to the reincarnation of Changkya Rolpei Dorje. At 49 he gave, at the request of Sera Je College, essential transmission and teachings on the Lam-Rim in ten cycles to thousands of monks.
His collected works comprises of four volumes, published by the Library of Tibetan Works and Archives, Dharamsala 1985.3 Volume 1 contains sadhanas for various yidams including one for Naropa’s Vajrayogini (nA ro mkha’ spyod) written at the request of a monk from Namgyal monastery. Volume 2 comprises of various works including answers to questions by various students, such as the reincarnation of Jaya Pandita, on various subjects. Volume 3 includes teachings on the method for developing bodhicitta transmitted from Dharmarakshita called Wheel of Sharp Weapons (mtshon cha ‘khor lo). Volume 4 contains sadhanas and propitiations for various yidams and protectors such as for 13 Deity Mandala of Red Yamari.
I can guess who you are: you’re that asian fag who calls himself Jamyang at NKT in TO, aren’t you? Its okay obviously honesty is not in your nature. Happy grand opening, loser.
SHORT SADHANA OF DORJE SHUGDEN
To be performed for the welfare of all mother sentient beings by Kyabje Dakpu Dorje Chang
(This short sadhana and prayer is the most common one done by countless devotees around the world daily. It is permissable to do without empowerment into the sacred circle of this transcendental protector)
PRAISE
Before myself, as yidam deity,
Amidst a wind swept dark red fire,
On lotus, sun, and splendid, frightening
Lion trampling enemies and obstructers,
Is the supreme heart-jewel of Dharmapalas,
Mighty Gyalchen, Dorje Shugden,
Body, beautified by robes of a monk,
Wearing the golden domed hat on his head,
Razor sword and enemy heart in his hands,
In a manner, pleased with the practitioner,
Fierce expression destroying enemies and obstructers,
Surrounded by oceans of retinues
Of attendants such as Kache Marpo,
Light rays from my heart invite
From the sphere of pure nature
And each palace, wherever they are,
The wisdom beings who, in one instant,
Become inseparable from the commitment beings!
DZA HUM BAM HO!
EXHORTATION FOR ACTIVITY
HUM
Unimpeded in power and miraculous emanation,
Unrivaled in wisdom and compassion,
Great King of Dharma Protectors whose time has come,
Dorje Shugden, Five Families and Principal,
And hundreds of thousands of millions of billions of entourage,
Offerings, tormas, and samaya substances covering the earth,
Basal substances filling the expanse of space,
Actually arranged and mentally emanated,
I offer, please accept with compassion!
Spread Lozangs’ Teachings and for its upholders,
Committed patrons and entourages,
Increase their lifespans, merit, and wealth like the waxing moon!
Bring under control whatever they wish,
And, like the jewel that fulfills all wishes,
Spontaneously accomplish all of their dharmic activities
In this and future lives!
GOLDEN DRINK OFFERING
(offer a cup of black tea on one’s shrine to Dorje Shugden to remove a particular obstacle or fulfill a wish. It is done daily but in times of challenging situations, it is most effective)
HUM
Gurus who rain down two purposes,
Yidams who bestow the two siddhis,
Offering you nectar that bestows bliss,
Spontaneously grant our every wish!
Three places’ heroes and dakinis,
Mighty hosts of sworn dharmapalas,
Offering you nectar that bestows bliss,
Spontaneously grant our every wish!
Six-armed and White Mahakalas, Dharmaraja, outer, inner, secret,
Palden Lhamo, Tent and Four-faced Mahakalas, and Vaisravana,
Offering you nectar that bestows bliss,
Spontaneously grant our every wish!
Manjusri’s attendant, sworn Dharmaraja,
And oceans of outer, inner, and secret entourage,
Offering you nectar that bestows bliss,
Spontaneously grant our every wish!
Transcendent supreme dharmapala,
Dorje Shugden, strict and swift of power
Offering you nectar that bestows bliss,
Spontaneously grant our every wish!
( recite 3x, 7x, 21x, 108x or more and focus on your wishes)
Five types that bestow unimpeded
Acts of peace, increase, control, and wrath,
Offering you nectar that bestows bliss,
Spontaneously grant our every wish!
Nine beautiful consorts, eight guide monks,
Ten young wrathful agents, and the rest,
Offering you nectar that bestows bliss,
Spontaneously grant our every wish!
Especially, principal guardian of Buddhadharma,
Setrab Chen and your entourage,
Offering you nectar that bestows bliss,
Spontaneously grant our every wish! (3x)
Life-holder of those with broken bonds,
Fierce Kache Marpo, invincible,
Offering you nectar that bestows bliss,
Spontaneously grant our every wish!
Vow-breakers’ heart-blood purified like gold,
This drink of fully boiling serkyem,
I offer to Namka Bardzin and entourage
Accepting, accomplish the yogi’s intended purpose!
Emanations, beyond thought, as well,
Attendants that rock the billion worlds,
Offering you nectar that bestows bliss,
Spontaneously grant our every wish!
Being thus honored and exhorted,
Unslacking in four activities,
Through the six times, always protect us
Like a father caring for his son!
Hosts of fierce attendants, remember
Your sworn oaths before Lord Dulzin and,
Swiftly, now, perform, unslackingly,
Each and every action I request!
PRAYER – OFFERINGS AND REQUESTS
HUM
With three doors I prostrate reverently,
Make outer and inner offerings,
Flesh, blood, torma, tsog, tsampa, butter,
Milk and curd, set out and envisioned!
Tantric, base, fulfillment, commitment,
Favorite visual, and sang offerings,
Filling space, thus, may heart commitments
Be fulfilled, broken bonds be restored!
All our mistakes of thought or deed that
Trangress the great Dharmapala’s mind,
Confessed from the heart, purify us;
Like a mother, care for your children!
Supreme Protector, we beseech you:
Spread Conqueror Losang’s tradition!
Extend Lama’s life and influence!
Increase Sangha’s teaching and practice!
Like my shadow, never part from me!
Clear every hindrance and obstacle!
Make conditions favorable, as wished!
Nurture and protect us, without break!
The time has come to show your might,
With four conducts, swift and decisive,
Swiftly accomplishing, just as wished,
Deeply heart-felt aims, especially!
Now is time to judge the karmic truth!
Time to clear the innocent of blame!
Time to guard weak, protectorless beings,
Time to protect your dharma children!
Henceforth until great enlightenment,
Enthroned as Guru and Protector,
Watching over us both day and night,
Ever unslackingly protect us! (3x)
MANTRA
From the heart syllable of myself visualized as the yidam, light rays emanate. They strike the HUM syllables and surrounding mantra garlands which, matching each deity in colour, stand upon the sun seats at the hearts of Dharmapala Gyalchen Shugden’s five fierce families, exhorting them without choice to perform whatever desired peaceful increasing, powerful, or wrathful activity, without obstruction.
OM BENZA WIKI BITRANA SOHA!
(principal deity) (one should recite this holy mantra of King Dorje Shugden as much as possible)
OM DHARMAPALA MAHA RADZA BENDZA BEGAWANA RUDRA
PANTSA KULA SARVA SHATRUM MARAYA HUM PHAT!
(entourage) (may recite 21x)
By just recollecting you for an instant, outer and inner
Obstructions are dispelled. O powerful five families
Of Gyalchen Shugden, bestower of the four activities,
To the Dharmapala and his entourage I bow down.
OM VAJRASATTVA …
Whatever I have done incorrectly
Through not finding, not knowing,
Or lack of ability,
Please be patient with all of these.
By remaining together with this image
For the sake of all migrators,
May you grant us long life without illness,
Power, and supreme attainments!
OM SU PRATISHTA BENDZA YE SOHA!
By the virtue arising through my effort,
With pure motive in this method,
May all beings be cared for inseparably
By peaceful and wrathful Manjushri from life to life!
May the Venerable Gurus’ lives be firmly stable,
May pure activities flourish to the ten directions,
And may the lamp of Losang’s Teachings remain forever,
Dispelling darkness of the three realms’ beings.
In all lives may we be inseparable from the perfect Guru,
Enjoy the glory of Dharma, and,
Fully completing all qualities of the paths and grounds,
Swiftly attain the state of Vajradhara.
By this virtue may I quickly, having attained the state of Guru Buddha,
Establish every being without exception in that state.
That the Dharma King Tsong Khapa’s pure Dharma tradition flourish
May obstructive omens be eliminated and conducive conditions
Without exception be complete!
In dependence on the two combined accumulations
Of myself and others over the three times,
May the Conqueror Losang Drakpa’s
Teachings flourish for a very long time.
May there be auspiciousness of the root and lineage Gurus!
May there be auspiciousness of the hosts of yidam deities!
May there be auspiciousness of the goddesses, dakas, and dakinis!
May there be auspiciousness of the Dharma protector guardians!
In that snow-mountain encircled land,
Source of every benefit and joy,
May Lord Tenzin Gyatso, Chenresig,
Live forever ’till the end of existence!
dear gen hur,
I am not who you say I am but that doesn’t matter. I have no idea who you are nor does it matter. I do not belong to any centre. I live a peaceful life in Canada with my family, my practice and my work.
I would very much like to share the benefits of Dorje Shugden’s practice to many as it has benefitted me. I will continue to do so for the rest of my life.
You have nothing but negative deragatory words with every message you post. That is too bad for you.
If you are a Buddhist, please represent Buddhism well on a any blog, forum, or e-information site even though people can’t see you. It doesn’t matter if you agree with what is written, but write well.
Dorje Shugden Chenpola Chaktselo!
“Tsarong Tashi Pelbar”: I know I’ve retired from this conversation but I must observe: no Tibetan types that fast, period.
Secondly I may be stupid but not so much that I would reveal my name to group of cult murderers, sorry. Now back to the sermon…
Dear Tsarong Tashi Pelbar,
Fantastic posts!!! Thanks for the effort.
Your scholarly posts of the various prayers from so many high lamas are so fantastic!! Is it ok to choose any prayer and do daily? I just want to make sure.
I have never done any Dorje Shugden prayers and I have been to some of H.H. the Dalai Lamas talks in New York City. He is great.
But there has been so much publicity on this dharma protector Shugden. I investigated and checked on line and I LIKE IT.
Both the pro shugden people and anti shugden people are really making this Shugden deity really bigger and bigger.
My husband and I have a group of 20 over friends who get together to read the Lam Rim weekly and they make up professionals from all backgrounds. We are all interested very much in some practice. (Although sometimes, our work becomes an excuse to not focus on our spiritual journey more as my husband is a surgeon. *sigh*)
We have been having discussions regarding many issues in Tibetan Buddhism. So we have decided there is something more behind a great man like the Dalai lama ’speaking out against’ this protector. I guess we kinda looked deeper. Because there are many great men speaking for this Deity also. His controversialty is an attraction I must say.
My husband and I have downloaded a picture of Dorje Shugden and placed it on a simple shrine as a start.
Much appreciations,
Kathy and Joel
Dear Gyalpo,
No tibetans types so fast? Speak for yourself please. Please don’t put down all Tibetans. Some of us have gone for higher studies in our respective countries. Some of us treasure learning. Thank you all the same.
You don’t have to reveal your name. It is not important to check who you are. I have never murdered anyone and I never will.
I would rather spread the message of Dorje Shugden. That would be time well spent.
Long Live Tibet, Long Live the Dalai Lama, Long Live Dorje Shugden.
Hey Tsarong Tashi Pelbar,
I don’t care if your Tibetan or not. What is the big deal if you are or not????
But I like what you say. Your knowledge is incredible. You sound like a scholar.
I like all the prayers you posted up. I like the one by the 5th Dalai Lama. I read his biography. I think I would like to do the prayers sometimes.
Where else can I read up more on Dorje Shugden. I like Tricycle but I don’t belong to any Centers.
Keep up the great posts!
W
We are partners, we adore Dorje shugden eversomuch and are going to give all our money to NKT, to spread love and well, more love. I especially admire the fact that DS holds a severed human heart..its so cuteT When we are not busy with our careers, he’s a brain sugeon and I’m President of General Motors, we make voodoo dolls and perform human sacrifices in our back yard.
Hey Tsarong Tashi Pelbar: We don’t care if you tell lies or not, your number one, and what a typist, you are a content-generating robot! Do you take meth or something, golly!
Dear Great Posts,
You can find more information on:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com
http://www.dorjeshugdenhistory.org
and on these sites there are further links.
Also there are hundreds of videos on youtube regarding this practice and other related information. Just do a search on youtube.
I wish you luck and I do thank you for your encouragement.
新华网_传播中国报道世界
Dear Bobby and Leo,
No I don’t take meth or anything, just caffeine. I just drink alot of Tibetan tea with extra butter!! My favorite drink! But thanks anyway.
Thanks so much for your encouragement. I do appreciate it.
Long live Dalai Lama, Tibet and Dorje Shugden!
直以来，教育不断发生变化，但学生的作业本除外，仍是一副“弱不禁风”的样子——省教育厅昨日发文，要求各地通过统一招标来选择学生作业本生产经营企业，以提高学生作业本的质量。
省教育厅说，原则上每学年进行一次招标，任何教育行政部门或学校均不得直接指定簿册（俗称“作业本”）生产经营企业。
不仅如此，我省原本的中小学学生簿册生产经营企业资质认定宣布取消，由各地根据招投标的规定和自己的实际制定生产作业本企业所需的条件。
与此同时，省教育厅要求中标企业要按省质量技术监督局发布的学生作业本标准来生产作业本，未按标准进行生产的作业本不得进入校园销售。
这份通知据认为是为了提高学生作业本的质量，因为学生簿册生产供应市场普遍存在着价格高、产品质量参差不齐、个别厂家偷工减料、以次充好等现象。家有读书郎的父母应该可以发觉，有些作业本稍微用力写或是擦就“碎”了。
此外，通知还要求各地最大限度地减免贫困学生作业本的费用。 （记者 佘峥 张小燕）
新华网福州４月１日电（陈德进 谢祥宁）31日，安溪中国茶都三楼，60多名回乡退伍军人专心致志地聆听茶叶专家、高级讲师张木树讲授茶叶发展历史、乌龙茶品种、乌龙茶发酵过程原理等茶叶知识，这是安溪县首次对退伍军人进行创业就业培训。此次培训延续到6月份，还将进行技能实践操作、结业考核考试。考核合格后，有关部门颁发相关技术资格证书。
据介绍，此次培训立足安溪茶乡特色，重点安排茶叶初制、精制、营销等涉茶业务的技能培训，通过聘请讲师工程师授课、春茶初制技能实践、技能操作考核、评茶员资格考试等环节，使受训退伍军人能够比较系统了解掌握铁观音初制、精制、营销技巧，提高识茶、制茶、鉴茶、品茶水平，掌握就业技能，拓展创业就业空间。
“像这样的培训活动，给想创业而找不到门路的老战友们搭建了很好的平台，提高了大家的创业本领。”退伍军人苏建林欣喜地告诉记者，就他个人来说，他一直自己摸索茶叶初制技术，苦于摸不着门道，现在好了，不仅懂得茶青发酵过程原理，还学很多茶叶初制、精制、销售的知识。他表示，通过培训，有信心拿到一本“茶叶高级加工工”资格证书。
为应对当前严峻的就业形势，做好共克时艰、迎接挑战、寻机就业准备的需要，该县人武部、民政局、劳动和社会保障局、茶叶协会联合举办此次培训活动。（完）
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Hey Tsarong Tashi Pelbar,
I have been reading all that you have been writing and YOU HAVE WON THE DEBATE!!!!
You are direct, scholarly, very gentle and it seems you are a long time practitoner of Buddhism. From your posts, you exude spirituality and level headed answers. If you are representative of a Dorje Shugden practitoner, then it speaks VOLUMES FOR THIS DEITY. You are what you pray to.
Did you ever think of PERHAPS STARTING A WEBSITE ON DORJE SHUGDEN WITH ALL YOUR KNOWLEDGE.
I will check out the other two sites you have recommended.
Thanks a great deal.
Tsarong Tashi Pelbar:
Remember the old Xijang aphorism:
The yak who shits on the road
will meet with flies upon his return
Kathy and Joel: If you were any more middle class white american it would be …abnormal. We agree with your statement ” His controversialty is an attraction I must say.” You talk much goodly english where u lern? Beijing?
Here’s our favorite description of Dorje Shugden, or ‘Shuggie’ as we like to call him: “From his shoulders hangs a garland of fifty, freshly severed, blood dripping heads. A human skin serves as his carpet…Inside the palace, corpses of men and carcasses of horses are spread out, and the blood of men and horses streams together forming a lake. Human skins and hides if tigers are stretched into curtains. The smoke of the ‘great burnt offering’,(i.e. human flesh) spreads into the ten quarters of the world.. ..on all sides are hung up as tapestries fresh skins of elephants…”
(excerpted from ‘Oracles and Demons of Tibet: The Cult and Iconography of the Tibetan Protective Deities’ by Rene De Nebesky-Wojkowitz.)
cute? you betcha!
I have been observing this interesting debate here especially between Gen Hur/Gyalpo and Tsarong Tashi Pelbar, I must say Tsarong Tashi Pelbar won this debate handsdown. In the Buddhist tradition, the loser in debate will adopt the doctrine of the winner, no wonder Gen Hur/Gyalpo have gone silence.
sorry to say, Gen Hur/Gyalpo you guys dont sound logical at all and you guys definitely do not represent well as the pro-dalai lama camp, the shugden people sounds more matured and reasonable, so I am gonna check out more about dorje shudgen.
You won, oh for sure, your opponents are vanquished
by the way, don’t mind the police
Interpol on trail of Shugden Cult Killers
“The Interpol Red Notices for Lobsang Chodak, 36, and Tenzin Chozin, 40, issued at the request of the Indian police, are believed to be among the first demands by another country to arrest Chinese citizens living within their own country’s borders. A Red Notice is not an arrest warrant but is a means by which Interpol notifies member nations that an individual is wanted in another country.They were killed in ritualistic murders in which as many as five men are believed to have taken turns to stab the prominent 70-year-old academic, who was an outspoken critic of the Dorje Shugden sect.”
from the Times online: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article1968987.ece
We surrender, but we’ve already converted so now what are you going to do? We were wondering if shutting the fuck up is the answer?
Dear Bobby and Leo,
That fits the description of most of the pantheon of Tibetan Buddhist Protective Deities such as:
Pelden Hlamo
Naked black ogress with hanging breasts, wearing human heads strung on intestines. Wearing snakes and skulls. Holding a human skull cup with blood riding on a flayed skin of her son, flapped over a wrathful mule crossing an ocean of blood.
Four Faced Mahakala
Four Gaping faces with bloodshot eyes and skull tiaras. Four powerful arms holding weapons of war. Wearing freshly cut severed human heads. Standing on demons and obstacle makers with a tiger skin skirt.
6 armed Mahakala
Fierce Avalokita black in colour with sharp fangs. Six arms holding various frightening implements like skull mala and cementary knife. Wearing tiger skin, trampling on Ganesha. Fierce, on fire and extremely angry. Holding bloody flayed elephant skin.
Kalarupa
Buffaloe headed face with gaping mouth with sharp fangs. Erect secret organ with dark black blue body. Wearing bone ornaments, skull tiara, and freshly severed human heads. Facing his naked fierce consort Camundi riding over a buffaloe molesting a man.
Nechung Pehar Gyelpo
King Pehar with 3 faces and six arms holding various intruments of war such as the bow and arrow. Each face with fangs and bulging bloodshot eyes. Snakes and heads are your ornaments riding on a fierce snow lion. Ready to strike down in an instant any enemies of the Buddhadharma from the land of snows.
Kinkara or Durdak Yabyum
Skeleton couple male and female. On fire, wearing skull tiaras, bearing fangs and adorned with tiger skirt. From your body brilliant fire like that at the end of an aeon serves to burn up all enemies, obstructors and mischief makers..Protect yogis from…
Oracles and Demons of Tibet is great book. It has many descriptions of various protective deities and it was written in conjunction with the Gelugpa Dardo Rinpoche and the Nyingmapa Chimey Ringdzin around 1953 before the fall of Tibet.
On page 445-447 they have a great map of Nechung temple in which the where the eastern and western doors of the temple may be entered by ppl of all rank. But the southern door of Nechung Temple remains closed by religious tradition so that when Nechung Protector becomes enlightened, the southern door will open for Dorje Shugden to enter and become the main protector of this era. Very interesting that is what was believed within the Nechung Temple or the state oracle of the Dalai lamas. So it has been predicted that during the switch from Nechung to Dorje Shugden there will be some upheavals. Like the changing of one govt to another.
Bobby and Leo,
Yes shutting up with BE THE ANSWER FOR THE BOTH OF YOU!!!
Why are all the Tibetan protector deities so full of gore.
Doesn’t the Dalai Lama practice pelden hlamo and nechung?
I’ve heard him talk about these deities in one of his talks in Dharamsala.
I was wondering about that.
There must be a tantric reason.
Bobby and Leo,
Great idea that arose from within the emptiness of your minds…SHUT UP.
Such homophobia, please be nice devil worshipers.
hey, in the USA, we can worship whatever the hell we want…too bad for you.
Where you from, Dharamsala??
Wow, Tsarong Tashi Pelbar, that’s what I call KNOWLEDGE!
It seems that a lot of Tibetan deities fit the description of Bobby and Leo gave, not only Dorje Shugden. Nechung too, perhaps?
Sorry Bobby and Leo, you lose again by shooting at your own feet!
‘Oracles and Demons of Tibet: The Cult and Iconography of the Tibetan Protective Deities’ sounds very interesting, there’s an article on a website quoting from the same book too:
CHANGING OF THE GUARDIANS
“The southern gate is held closed in accordance with an old tradition that the chokyong Dorje Shugden is waiting at this entrance for the day to come on which he will be allowed to enter the monastery, to succeed Pehar as the chief dharmapala of Tibet…”
René de Nebesky-Wojkowitz, “Oracles and Demons of Tibet”, page 445, in his description of Nechung Gompa.
Wow, Dorje Shugden is going to take over Nechung as the chief dharmapala of Tibet!
read more here:
http://www.dorjeshugden.net/greatking.htm
http://blog.tricycle.com/?p=1127#comment-40670
Hi Nyima,
May I know where I can get a copy of the book you mentioned?
René de Nebesky-Wojkowitz, “Oracles and Demons of Tibet”
Thanks!
To Tsarong Tashi Pelbar,
What a great short description of each of those protective deities.
I received Pelden Hlamo initiation many years ago. She is extremely fierce, dark, frightening and ferocious. The description of her body is like what you wrote.
I personally like ferocious deities. But when my husband first saw a picture of this black fierce Goddess Pelden Hlamo, he was taken aback. He is use to the image of a benevoloent smiling peaceful Buddha. So when we went to the Tibetan temples in India, I showed him the wall paintings of her in Dalai lama’s Monastery and were told it is his main protective deity. I was really happy to hear that.
She can look quite like a demon, a devil or an evil spirit to someone who doesn’t understand who she is or what the symbolism all means.
I guess Dorje Shugden’s fierce ornaments would have similar meaning.
翻译的不好，请大家原谅，呵呵
虽然达赖喇嘛带着和平的信息于今天开始他15天的访美之行，但很多佛教徒却因为他强迫他们抛弃信仰自己的神明而计划对他进行抗议。
这些人在和尚和尼姑的带领下，将全程跟踪达赖喇嘛来抗议他禁止他们信奉自己的神明Dorje Shugden。达赖喇嘛以前也敬重Dorje Shugden，但现在却认定他是恶毒的。
（省略三段关于达赖的日程安排）
这些人抗议的原因是两年前达赖喇嘛关于信仰Dorje Shugden的声明。牙买加出生来自于波士顿的尼姑Dierdre Lofters说“1996年，他正是禁止人们信仰Dorje Shugden，原因是这种信仰不但对健康有害，并且与西藏自由的目标相抵触。结果，在印度，有很多Dorje Shugden的追随者被赶出了寺庙、房子被纵火并在自己的社区里被当成了贱民”
哥伦比亚大学研究印度－西藏的教授和纽约“Tibet House”的总裁Robert Thurman说，尽管达赖对Dorje Shugden是神灵表示同意， “但认为Dorje Shugden是藏传佛教中的一个邪恶的神灵，20年前达赖就建议不要信奉他”。
两年前，当达赖喇嘛发现自己的很多追随者转而追随Dorje Shugden后，采取了更严厉的手段，如不让这些人参加教学和正式的宗教仪式。Thurman说，“达赖的声明被错误地认为是象西方革出教会那样的禁止令”。
人权组织“International Campaign for Tibet”的总裁John Ackerly则直截了当地否认达赖喇嘛策划了任何的镇压和暴力。
抗议者说他们计划通过烛光机会这样行动来传达自己的意愿。直接的对抗在达赖喇嘛这次的访问中应该不会出现。
（最后是一个关于日期错误的更正）
Part 1
Hello my name is Thomas Canada, you may know of me, my family owned America before Columbus sailed. I have many identities, there is a clinical term for this condition but thats not important now.
In the 1970’s clad in only a cotton kitenge, a few hundred grams of Marakesh ‘Rocket No. 3′, a copy of The Third Eye by Lobsang Rampa and a US passport taped to my left buttock, I set out into the wilderness on a quest. After many insights and hardships I had to admit to myself–I needed directions. I asked a cameldriver: “Is this the way to the Himalayas?” “No, effendi, them be in Asia” It was then I decided to sue the Dalai Lama for moving pilgrimage places to a continent inconvenient for Americans.
…to be continued
Dear Tsarong Tashi Pelbar: you are very wise and learned and drink butter tea, perhaps you can explain why, if Shugden is such an important buddha, he does not appear once in the Five Hundred Gods of Narthang pantheon (with 495 drawings of divinities); he does not not appear once in the Mongolian Kanjur pantheon with 510 drawings of divinities: nor the Bhadrakalpika sutra Icons; nor the Three Hundred Icons; nor the Astasahasrika Pantheon collection and so forth. These texts are the standard reference for iconography, one can only conclude the claim that historically millions of Tibetan practiced this obscure god for centuries is patently false, he appears to be a very minor and unimportant rgyalpo indeed.
Dear Tsarong Tashi Pelbar: Similarly when one examines the Lama Chopa refuge lineage tree, there is no DS to be found. The Six Ornaments and two Excellents, Nayten Chodruk, all the Kadamapa Geshes, The Dalai Lamas all are present. One can only conclude the claim that historically millions of Tibetan practiced the obscure god Dorje Shugden for centuries is not true, he is a very minor and unimportant rgyalpo indeed.
A thorough history:
http://www.dorjeshugdenhistory.org/index.html
I suspect our “Tibetan” scholar Tsarong Tashi Pelbar here is nothing of the sort– one does not make restricted practice texts public for the purpose of appearing to possess superior knowledge, which in any case in no way constitutes debate even if he garners numerous compliments and premature ejaculation claims of victory from attendant groupies of his own manufacture. A Tibetan would not play with dharma texts, which occupy the highest place on a household shrine, even higher than images.
Here is an extract of Linda E. Patrik’s comments entitled
“Multicultural Issues on the TEI’s Horizon: the Case of Tibetan Texts”
With regard to readers’ mental preparation, traditional Tibetan libraries contain many ‘restricted’ texts, which are not given wide circulation because of the original esoteric meaning of these texts. Certain advanced texts were ‘classified’, so to speak; they were meant only for meditator/scholars who met certain conditions: they had achieved the right qualifications for understanding the meaning of the texts, had received permission from their teacher to study or use the texts, and had made a commitment to practice the meditation methods described in the texts. These advanced Vajrayana texts are, to this day, not made accessible by traditional Tibetan teachers to any reader for the asking.”
http://mustard.tapor.uvic.ca/cocoon/ach_abstracts/xq/xhtml.xq?id=133
So what do we have here with Tsarong Tashi Pelbar? He is a somewhat well researched non-buddhist practitioner, posing as a Tibetan elder. Dorje Shugden groups have apparently been infiltrated if restricted texts are leaked out indiscriminately. The topic of discussion here is electronic tricks, the Shugden forum (http://blog.tricycle.com/?p=741) has been going on since Sept. 16th, 2008. Tsarong Tashi Pelbar and his numerous and diverse admirers and instant converts are free to go there as that is the appropriate thread.
Andres Villalon:
AVOID ALL PRO-SHUGDEN, NKT/WSS WEBSITES.
THERE IS A DANGER YOU WILL INFECT YOUR PC WITH CHINESE MALWARE AND SPYWARE.
THESE ARE NOT SAFE PLACES TO VISIT.
I don’t agree with Red or Gyalpo, I think Tsarong Tashi Pelbar is very learned and is a Tibetan elder as he claims, he’s just crazy not a great endorsement for lifelong DS cult practice, is it? Anyone who still does DS and wants to not crack up like Tsarong Tashi Pelbar, Gangchen aka the “Italian Stallion”, or Thomas “Pharmabucks” Canada ought to bail out, right away!
Its time to get back on topic. (Those who wish to discuss the Shugden devil cult can do so on the appropriate thread_
China hosts 44.8 percent of all web pages that have been infected with malware. For the victims, it’s simply a matter of clicking on the link to visit the web site; once you arrive, your computer is infected. Indeed, spam hosted on Chinese domains rose enormously, from almost no domains in June to 450 spam domains in August.
“The malware market is huge in China,” said a Qihoo manager who spoke on condition of anonymity. “Companies make tens of millions of renminbi [yuan] in ad revenue. There’s a whole ecosystem of malware in China, and many PC users aren’t aware of its harm.”
In general I think it was a fault to mix the origin message with the Shugden issue.
However since it was discussed and many links to Shugden websites and prayers to him were listed, I wish to leave a note that there exist a review website which includes a properly referenced summery on this issue based on different point of views and mainly based on neutral academic sources: http://info-buddhism.com/dorje_shugden_controversy.html
My blog gives an extensive list of Western academic research on this subject as well:
http://westernshugdensociety.wordpress.com/2008/07/24/academic-researches-regarding-shugden-controversy-nkt/
“Kindness is my religion.” HH the Dalai Lama.
BTW, Tsarong Tashi Pelbar, I don’t know if you are Tibetan or not.
In the past NKT was so keen to post their point of view under Tibetan names claiming they would be (’persecuted’) Tibetans (persecuted by the Dalai Lama). Since this fact is known by some I can understand the doubts of some posters here with respect to your claimed nationality - especially as so many other posters started enthusiastically to support you, which is rather a typical NKT online method to establish their point of view (see e.g. http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,61584,page=1 and other threads).
To understand the background of those distrusting you I suggest to read this article by a Tibetan: http://www.south-asia.com/himal/September/dorje.htm
All tantric texts are available on online stores, bookstores, dharma stores in most countries now. It is open and available. And made available by many lamas now.
All sadhanas, tantric practices, initiation texts, ritual texts are all available in the Tibetan Library-dharamsala for sale to anyone anytime.
Tantric texts were available to everyone without any ‘check’ also in Tibet.
It is up to the individual to have discretion to not read what is available to initiates only such as Yamantaka, Cakrasamvara,etc. Those are without exception, without empowerments, one cannot glance the text.
The prayers by various lamas I have posted are propitiatory prayers and do not require any sort of empowerment to recite.
The short prayer by Kyabje Dakpu Dorje Chang to Gyelchen Dorje Shugden is allowed to be recited by the uninitiated. Most protective deities have their own rites, empowerments,etc but without empowerment it is permissable to recite. No tantric code is broken.
Stupid Tibetans fighting over the existence of a god shugden!! Your gods are neither evil or good. Do they exist? If they exist, why didn’t they protect you from being chases out of tibet in 1959?? Shugdenites and PRC are friends? Are they working together against the Dalai lama? Don’t be stupid!!! You say that the shugdenites are a minority group, so then what are you worried about? They can’t do anything can they? You stupid Tibetans fight over a protector god while your leader ages and death is near. Don’t you have bigger issues to worry about? What a backwards group of people debating over a god.
There is nothing you or anyone else can do re the cyber take over from China.
China is the most sought after country for business and economic trade in the world. The US, Germany, Japan, Korea, England, France, Switzerland, Australia, Canada, Singapore, Taiwan, Russia, South Africa, and any other countries ALL WANT RELATIONS WITH THE PEOPLE’S REBUBLIC OF CHINA. So all of you can say anything you want against PRC, but the feeble attacks you post here on this blog will get you nowhere.
The 21st century is the age of China. You will hear nothing but China, China, China with its 1.2 BILLION CITIZENS. Western and Eastern countries all will be very careful of Chinese sentiments, respectful of its leaders and will kow-tow to this great nation.
Tibetan independence and autonomy WILL ACHIEVE NO SUCCESS OR HEADWAY WHATSOEVER. Who will listen to 6 million Tibetans as to compared to 1.2 BILLION CHINESE. If govts wanted to do something they would have done so already.
When the Dalai Lama dies, all sounds of Tibetan independence/autonomy will completely die off. The materialistic Tibetans will sink into their individual countries that they scattered to like ants to make money and live the good life. The Dalai Lama is what 74, give him another 6 or 7 years. The there will BE COMPLETE SILENCE.
What would be better is to think what will happen to all the Tibetans in India and Nepal. Without their only leader, do you think the Govts of those countries will continue to be generous to the Tibetans and put up with their protests, cries for freedom and antics?? Just a few years left.
TIBETANS BETTER MAKE PEACE, FRIENDSHIP AND RELATIONS WITH THE PEOPLE’S REPUBLIC OF CHINA!! REMEMBER YOUR COUNTRYMEN IN TIBET. IT IS THEY WHO WILL SUFFER IF YOU DON’T.
The Dalai Lama has given up all hopes for Tibetan Independence decades ago. He has given up all hopes for autonomy this year. He has asked the Tibetans what they wish to do??
China will become the largest economy in the world and that will make it formidable and sought after. GET USE TO IT.
STUPID PPL ON THIS BLOG TRYING TO FIGURE IF TSARONG IS TIBETAN OR NOT. WHO CARES!!! NOTHING HAPPENS.
CALLING SHUGDEN PPL A DEVIL CULT. DALAI SAYS JUMP AND YOU JUMP. YOUR THE ACTUAL CULTISTS. AND YOUR CULT LEADER IS DALAI LAMA. YOUR GODS DON’T EXIST!!
THOSE OF YOU CALLING THEM DEVIL WORSHIPPERS ARE YOU BETTER? ARE YOU SO ENLIGHTENED? JUST BATHMOUTHING THEM AND LABELLING THEM DEVIL WORSHIPPERS MAKES YOU LOOK REAL HOLY??!!! STUPID. AREN’T YOU SUPPOSE TO BE TOLERANT, PATIENT AND FORGIVING OR SOMETHING.
CULT LEADER DALAI LAMA SAYS HE FORGIVES THE CHINESE FOR KILLING 1.2 MILLION TIBETANS DURING THE TAKEOVER OF TIBET. WHILE WHY DON’T YOU ANTI-SHUGDEN CULTISTS WHO WORSHIP THE DALAI CULT FORGIVE THE SHUGDEN PEOPLE. WHY DON’T YOU FOLLOW WHAT THE DALAI PREACHES??
STUPID PEOPLE WHO FOLLOW DORJE SHUGDEN. STUPID PEOPLE WHO FOLLOW THE OLD DALAI LAMA.
THEN SOME OF YOU PUTTING YOUR SEXUALITY WITHIN YOUR OWN DESCRIPTIONS OF WHO YOU ARE!!! GEE, WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH DALAI LAMA, DORJE SHUGDEN OR SPAMMING FROM CHINA????? THAT ONE REALLY TAKES THE CAKE!!!! YOU WIN THE STUPID AWARD FOR THE DECADE!!
GET REAL.
W H A T A S I L L Y S C A R E T A C T I C !!!!
See the post below by the fake tibetan Gyalpo!! Another anti-shugdenist posing as a Tibetan!!!
Don’t you think the red commies in PRC would spamware all the sites AGAINST DORJE SHUGDEN if your conspiracy theory is correct???
Don’t you think they would leave the NKT/dorje shugden/WSS sites running??? Why avoid those sites???? Silly tactic to scare people to avoid those sites!!! Read up, learn up and stop all your silly conspiracy theories…Grow up. TIBET IS A PART OF CHINA!!
by Gyalpo
AVOID ALL PRO-SHUGDEN, NKT/WSS WEBSITES.
THERE IS A DANGER YOU WILL INFECT YOUR PC WITH CHINESE MALWARE AND SPYWARE.
THESE ARE NOT SAFE PLACES TO VISIT.
61. Bobby and Leo - April 2, 2009
We are partners, we adore Dorje shugden eversomuch and are going to give all our money to NKT, to spread love and well, more love. I especially admire the fact that DS holds a severed human heart..its so cuteT When we are not busy with our careers, he’s a brain sugeon and I’m President of General Motors, we make voodoo dolls and perform human sacrifices in our back yard.
What a stupid post by ‘BOBBY AND LEO!!!!!!!!!’
WHAT A STUDENT ANTI-SHUGDENIST..’we are partners??!!!’ What the hec does that have to do with anything???
Ds holding a severed human heart??? Like most wrathful deities hold some part of the human body??? Take a good look at YAMANTAKA OR MAHAKALA!!!! DUH!!
Give all your money to NKT??? Don’t have to!!!! Someone beat you to it!!!! NKT got like 1,200 centres and chapters around the planet!!! They are the BIGGEST TIBETAN BUDDHIST CENTRE ON THIS OR ANY PLANET!!! Looks like SHUGGIE IS DOING HIS JOB REALLY WELL!!!!
SHUGGIE IS GOING TO RULE THE WORLD…AND YOUR HELPING HIM…KEEP IT UP!!!
HAHAHAHAHAHA….look at this stupid guy masquerading AS A TIBETAN!!! Read the ridiculous post BELOW!
‘NO TIBETAN TYPES THAT FAST PERIOD???????’ hahahaha. If this guy is Tibetan, he put his whole race down, if he isn’t, he is racist!!!
TIBETANS ARE SURE A RACE OF VERY SLOW BACKWARDS SERFS since no Tibetan can type fast!!! No wonder they lost their country and THEY WILL NEVER GET IT BACK!!! Your not stupid to reveal your name to a bunch of cult murderers??? But you have the whole directory to all the tibetans and canada and you know all the Litang elders…wow!!!Maybe your not a Tibetan, so no name, no check on you!!!
Tibetans murder, kill, rape, pillage, steal, eat meat, are sneaky, lie JUST LIKE ANY OTHER RACE ON THIS PLANET!!!! Yes, now back to the sermon!!!!!
Gyalpo - April 2, 2009
“Tsarong Tashi Pelbar”: I know I’ve retired from this conversation but I must observe: no Tibetan types that fast, period.
Secondly I may be stupid but not so much that I would reveal my name to group of cult murderers, sorry. Now back to the sermon…
Don’t be too pessimistic, “the end is near”. Things appear due to causes and conditions and if negative causes are exhausted and there are enough positive causes created, things will change to the positive.
When the world got used to the Berlin Wall and gave up hope that it ever will break down, at that time it broke down, and the end of the communist dictatorship and the end of The Wall happened REAL and without any death… The changes came from within East Germany plus the way how the Western countries related to the communist dictatorships.
I think, presently the West is in the process to understand that China does not play the rules of the world, neither in human rights, economics nor environment - not even in Olympic games - it is rather like a wild untamed child which longs to play a global role but does not respect the rules the other countries share for cooperation. If the West and Asia is able to tame that child skilfully, things can improve. However if every country just sees their own benefit ignoring the actual situation within China, Tibet and other parts where China is operating then of course the more destructive sides will flourish. It would be like two football teams, one team following the rules the other team setting up his own rules - this won’t work. Since China has an interest to play a bigger role and loves to be have a good reputation much depends upon how the West relates and approached China.
It is also important to have love towards the people of China and to have a good relation to them. The PRC is a illegal dictatorship it is not the people of China it does not present the people of China and their will. Since HH the Dalai Lama is very clear in this he discriminates also in this way and has of course many Chinese friends and also supporters. Even one of the former Chinese leader when he died the family asked HH the Dalai Lama to pray for him, and of course HHDL prayed for him. (I forgot the name of that Chinese leader, but I heard the story from different sources and checked it with someone having more knowledge and he confirmed it as well, this Chinese leader had also seen the Cultural Revolution as a fault and he expressed also orally the injustice the Chinese state has done to the people of Tibet. This also shows that there are different opinions in the PRC leadership and that a more moderate leader could be another option to improve things….)
—-
Now with respect what I said with the doubts about the identity of Tsarong Tashi Pelbar, for me this was just a point which shows a development behind the blogs and posters:
The New Kadampa Tradition has a “truth-team” operating on different blogs and discussion forums and on Wikipedia. A rather new reader should be aware that many posts may be fakes by NKT and mutually agreeable posters may be just from this NKT “truth team”. At Wikipedia it is the same, including the use of sock puppets or operating from the same IP - probably a NKT center.
BTW some of these NKT posters are happy if you get upset with them and will then point the finger on you stating that you are angry and give a bad example of a Buddhist, so don’t let provoke yourself by these internet trolls
LISTEN TO TP BELOW….ANOTHER POST THAT DOESN’T REQUIRE ALOT OF THINKING. If there’s mulitiple posts that support shugden, then it is a NKT typical method?? There aren’t many others besides NKT that practice and support Shugden?? That isn’t a tactic, that is a method..NKT have thousands of members. And they all are for shugden and they will continue to grow. WHAT IS WRONG IF THEY SUPPORT EACHOTHER??
WHEN DALAI LAMA OPENED HIS MOUTH TO THIS BAN HE BECAME UNDEMOCRATIC!!! THE END!!! NO LEADER IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD BAN ANY FORM OF WORSHIP IN ANY DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY!!! THAT IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL. IF DALAI LAMA LIVED IN THE STATES, HE WOULD BE SUED OR TAKEN TO COURT!!!! No one is above the law!!
98. TP - April 3, 2009
BTW, Tsarong Tashi Pelbar, I don’t know if you are Tibetan or not.
In the past NKT was so keen to post their point of view under Tibetan names claiming they would be (’persecuted’) Tibetans (persecuted by the Dalai Lama). Since this fact is known by some I can understand the doubts of some posters here with respect to your claimed nationality - especially as so many other posters started enthusiastically to support you, which is rather a typical NKT online method to establish their point of view (see e.g. http://forum.rickross.com/read.php?12,61584,page=1 and other threads).
To understand the background of those distrusting you I suggest to read this article by a Tibetan: http://www.south-asia.com/himal/September/dorje.htm
HEY TP,
When you post, you are valid. But when I post, I am a troll..
hahahahaha
Your religion MUST BE KINDNESS….
hey tp, i like what you wrote and i paste below. That is great that Dalai Lama prayed for the forgotten prc leader that died..If he can be so generous as to pray for red, communist, atheist leaders, WHY DOESN’T HE ALSO PRAY FOR ALL THE SHUGDENITES.
ALLOW FREE WORSHIP. HAVE DIALOGUE WITH THEM. HAVE OPEN DEBATES WITH THEM. THEY HAVE RIGHTS TO INSTEAD OF JUST OUTRIGHT BANNING THEM AND GETTING THEM OSTRACIZED WITHIN THEIR OWN COUMMUNITIES. HE ALLOWS THE SHAMANISTIC BON LEADERS AND COMMUNITIES TO PRACTICE LIKE MENRI TRIZIN. AND THEY ARE ANIMISTS, NOT EVEN BUDDHISTS…PRAYING TO A PANTHEON OF GODS/DEMONS OF MOUNTAINS, EARTH, RIVERS AND SO FORTH. WON’T THEY GO TO HELL??
It is also important to have love towards the people of China and to have a good relation to them. The PRC is a illegal dictatorship it is not the people of China it does not present the people of China and their will. Since HH the Dalai Lama is very clear in this he discriminates also in this way and has of course many Chinese friends and also supporters. Even one of the former Chinese leader when he died the family asked HH the Dalai Lama to pray for him, and of course HHDL prayed for him. (I forgot the name of that Chinese leader, but I heard the story from different sources and checked it with someone having more knowledge and he confirmed it as well, this Chinese leader had also seen the Cultural Revolution as a fault and he expressed also orally the injustice the Chinese state has done to the people of Tibet. This also shows that there are different opinions in the PRC leadership and that a more moderate leader could be another option to improve things….)
IT IS VERY SIMPLE.
DALAI LAMA SHOULD HAVE OPEN DIALOGUE AND RECORDED WITH THE SHUGDEN SCHOLARS, GESHES, MASTERS, YOGIS, TULKUS AND ABBOTS!!
DEMOCRATIC LEADERS HAVE OPEN TELEVISED DEBATES. LEADERS FROM CHINA, BURMA, RUSSIA, BOSNIA, SOMOLIA, AFGHANISTAN AND THE DALAI LAMA DO NOT HAVE OPEN DEBATES WITH THE ‘enemies’ because the enemies are wrong and they are right!! The end!! Wouldn’t it make the Dalai Lama kind, open and very democratic to just have OPEN DIALOGUE?
Just have open debate……
Hi Gyapka,
when the head of the school of dialectics - who was a Shugden critic - and two monks were murdered (quite sure by Shugden followers, see the Interpol wanted notices) HH the Dalai Lama made clear to Gareth Sparham that the compassion should be directed to the murders. So since he follows also here the Dharma understanding I wonder how you can assume that he does not pray for the well-being of Shugden followers?
Moreover to stop the propagation of Shugden worship in public institutions like monasteries and the TGIE, is effectively helping people since according to many Buddhist masters from all schools, Shugden harms the practitioners and others may be effected in a very negative way by this practice - famous for killing followers who follow also other Buddhist traditions, especially Nyingmapa school. For more about this issue and the harm reported with respect to that practice see Tricycle blog: “Dorje Shugden - Deity or Demon” http://blog.tricycle.com/?p=741 there are enough quotes from academic sources which point out this topic in an unbiased manner.
BTW neither did I say that you are a troll nor did I quote HH the Dalai Lama “My religion is kindness” for the sake of praising myself and deprecating others. The troll and “truth team” issue I pointed out to put things into perspective and to make aware of a development some bloggers may be not aware of, and the “My religion is kindness” quote is to remind myself and others to be kind, no matter how much we may disagree.
The previous Trijang Rinpoche was chosen by the then Regent of Tibet, Nechung Oracle, and Abbots of the Gaden, Sera and Drepung to be his tutor. Trijang Rinpoche came with very high recommendations. When Trijang Rinpoche became the tutor he was already practicing Dorje Shugden and Nechung oracle knew that. Why didn’t Nechung stop it then. With so many great teachers in Sera, Drepung and Gaden, why didn’t they pick someone else? Because there was no issue with Dorje Shugden.
Trijang Rinpoche tutored Dalai Lama to his Geshe exams in Lhasa and Dalai Lama passed the exams. Trijang Rinpoche came into exile together with Dalai Lama’s entourage in ‘59. He was his tutor for over 30 years.
Trijang Rinpoche was the Dalai Lama’s root guru passing him a wealth of teachings, transmissions, commentaries, initiations, etc etc etc. Many of the teachings Dalai Lama gives today are from Trijang Rinpoche.
Trijang Rinpoche practiced Dorje Shugden his whole life. There was nothing wong with Trijang Rinpoche. Suddenly after Trijang Rinpoche’s death, Dalai Lama started to say Trijang Rinpoche is wrong. That Trijang Rinpoche shouldn’t have practiced Dorje Shugden and spread it to others!!
Well after Trijang Rinpoche passed away, he stayed in clear light meditation for 12 days in Dharamsala. Then the Dalai Lama searched for his incarnation. And was found! Didn’t go to the three lower realms as affirmed by Dalai lama.
So if you practice Demon Dorje Shugden, aren’t you suppose to go to three lower realms?? Not only did Trijang Rinpoche himself practice, he also wrote an extensive commentary, explanation, rites and rituals combined into one volume to preserve the teachings on Shugden. The Dalai Lama knew of this.
So the Dalai Lama started this ‘tradition’ that he can say his root guru Trijang Rinpoche was wrong. He says all the old masters including his root guru ARE WRONG!! That really disturbed the core of all Tibetan Buddhist practices where guru devotion is central especially when it comes to tantric practice.
See link below for video of this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5sOm-uQH9Y
If the Dalai Lama CAN SAY HIS GURU IS WRONG, WHY CAN’T WE SAY DALAI LAMA IS WRONG ALSO?
Some more, there are thousands who have not recieved any teachings and have no connection with the Dalai Lama, why can’t they say the Dalai Lama is wrong?
If Trijang Rinpoche can be wrong, then his disciple can be wrong. If a student can criticize the guru after his death, then when the guru dies, his students can also say he was wrong. The Dalai Lama started this difficult trend.
If by practicing Dorje Shugden, one degenerates in one’s refuge, then one is not a proper vessel anymore to teach, pass lineages, etc. Hence every single practice given to Dalai lama by Trijang Rinpoche for 30 years SHOULD BE INVALID. But the Dalai Lama often quotes from Trijang Rinpoche/confers initiations/practices to thousands and those he recieved from Trijang Rinpoche. Why would he do that? Wouldn’t all those teachings be invalid then? It doesn’t make sense.
Trijang Rinpoche can be wrong then Dalai Lama can be wrong. Dalai Lama should not say that regarding his guru. We all look up to our gurus.
What trend has Dalai lama started? If anything Dalai lama should be very tolerant and accepting of practices his people does like any leader of any democratic country.
Tp,
It may be true that all the people who practice Dorje Shugden may not truly be good practitioners and can even harm people. But there are people who follow the Dalai Lama who also harm others and damage in the name of Dalai lama. People are people.
See this video thoroughly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n5sOm-uQH9Y
There shouldn’t be sweeping statements.
The Muslims in Afghanistan blew up the Buddha carved into the mountain side. But that does not mean ALL MUSLIMS ARE BAD in that country.
So hypothetically if a small breakaway group allegedly killed this head of dialectics teacher, it does not mean ALL SHUGDEN PRACTITIONERS ARE BAD OR THAT DORJE SHUGDEN ENDORSED THIS ACTION. Or that all Shugden practitioners endorse this action.
There are good Christians and so called people who murder calling themselves Christians. But those murderers who call themselves Christians should not be used to penalize Christ. Similarly, those people that allegedly murdered the dialectics teacher should not be used to penalize Dorje Shugden.
Trijang Rinpoche never harmed but only benefitted. Even the Tibetan National Anthem used in exile was composed by this great master. Do you think Trijang Rinpoche would endorse murder? Certainly not.
Hence, not only the saintly Trijang Rinpoche, but thousands of great Tulkus, Geshes, Masters and monks worshipped Dorje Shugden for 350 years. Even the 9th and 10th Panchen Lamas practice Dorje Shugden and have a large chapel dedicated to this protector in Tashilunpo, his monastic seat existing until today. Panchen Lama is no ordinary being like the Dalai lama is not ordinary. So this ban Dalai Lama is doing must have some superior purpose that seems to be promoting Dorje Shugden.
Bottom line, Shugden wouldn’t be able to harm true nyingma practitioners. He couldn’t harm anyone who has taken refuge in the Three Jewels. Because once you have taken refuge you are protected. Certainly he couldnt harm the Dalai Lama even if he wanted to. So Shugden being able to harm is not logical. All talk that he can harm the Dalai Lama is baseless and he can harm tibetan independence is illogical. Tibet has a pantheon of protective deities. Surely Shugden couldn’t overpower the multitude of Protectors.
Instead of all the talk, publications, speeches and bans that seperate guru and disciple creating so much controversy. Why doesn’t the Dalai Lama do a binding ritual and bind Dorje Shugden making him swear an oath not to harm. That is what Padmasambhava did to Nechung.
Worse comes to worse, do a wrathful fire puja ‘killing’ Shugden in his present form and send Shugden’s consciousness to a pure land. In extreme cases, out of compassion for so many that can be harmed, that can be done. Either the binding ritual or fire puja is done then Shugden cannot harm. Then if people choose to still worship him,let them, because he is bound and can/will help. If he is dead, what is the harm of praying to a dead protector or a protector in the pure lands?
WOULDN’T IT BE EASIER TO DO SOMETHING TO SHUGDEN WHICH IS ONE BEING then a ban and negative rhetoric that hurt the sentiments of many, many, many beings and even criticzing your own guru??
Please think.
hi Tp,
You are obviously against Dorje Shugden, but you write with the style of a practitoner. It is a pleasure to ‘debate’ with you on this blog.
Wouldn’t it be very wonderful if Dalai Lama would also finally accept a open debate regarding this issue with the Shugden scholars?
Please do go through the videos from the youtube. Please think carefully as I will. I have included the link for you in my previous post.
Both sides are being harmed. Ultimately the reputation of the Dalai Lama is being harmed. That would not do Buddhism any good.
THERE IS A COURT CASE IN INDIA AGAINST THE DALAI LAMA.
The Indian court is demanding for the Dalai Lama to show up in court to state his case regarding the ban on Dorje Shugden. Dalai Lama’s lawyers are asking to send a representative to court in his stead.
It is infringing on Indian National Law for the Dalai Lama to ban any form of religious worship on Indian soil.
In a pluralistic society like India where hundreds of idols and many subsects of Hinduism are worshipped, such a ban is shocking to the Indian psyche. Not only Hindus, but many religions in India and their subsects resides side by side as peacefully as possible.
There are still Kali worshippers that offer animal sacrifices in her worship and the Indian constitution allows it. Now a guest (Dalai Lama) is speaking about bans in democratic India on Indian soil. The Indians have graciously extended help to Dalai lama and his people for 50 years now. Whatever religious politics Dalai Lama wishes to enforce CANNOT BE DONE ON INDIAN SOIL. This is not Tibet. India also does not wish to endanger their relationship with China. So India is in a precarious situation keeping mum. But the religious ban has been outrageous. It may be regarding a Tibetan Buddhist deity, but it is being carried out on Indian soil.
Until now the Indian authorities have closed a blind eye, but so much unrest within the Tibetan communities and international press is applying pressure.
The United Nations recently has recieved reports regarding this ban again and again. Ignoring the reports for years, finally it could not be overlooked. U.N. representatives have sent investigators to the Delhi Dorje Shugden Society and the Shar Gaden Monastery (newly formed in South India) having over 500 monks to talk to witnesses and a fact finding mission. It was unbelievable to the U.N. that Dalai Lama can be instilling and enforcing a ban. But the evidence has become overwhelming now prompting the recent investigations.
The Dorje Shugden Society in India has filed the charges and the Indian courts have accepted the suit. See below youtube video in regards to the court case on Aljazeera news.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdTnEnBsneM&feature=related
Whether the Dalai Lama physically goes to court or sends a representative, it does not help the reputation of the Dalai Lama in any shape or form.
In court, the Indian law will require Dalai Lama to stop all bans or the mention of it. Under oath, the Dalai Lama will be treated like any citizens or guest citizen of India subject to investigation by the authorities.
The case is currently ongoing now.
THIS POST BELOW MAKES ALOT OF SENSE.
By Gyakpa - April 4, 2009
IT IS VERY SIMPLE.
DALAI LAMA SHOULD HAVE OPEN DIALOGUE AND RECORDED WITH THE SHUGDEN SCHOLARS, GESHES, MASTERS, YOGIS, TULKUS AND ABBOTS!!
DEMOCRATIC LEADERS HAVE OPEN TELEVISED DEBATES. LEADERS FROM CHINA, BURMA, RUSSIA, BOSNIA, SOMOLIA, AFGHANISTAN AND THE DALAI LAMA DO NOT HAVE OPEN DEBATES WITH THE ‘enemies’ because the enemies are wrong and they are right!! The end!! Wouldn’t it make the Dalai Lama kind, open and very democratic to just have OPEN DIALOGUE?
Just have open debate……
EQUAL RIGHTS FOR ALL PLEASE.
The Dalai lama should have open debate with the Shugden Scholars. Open and recorded for everyone to hear, see and judge for themselves.
Whether the dorje shugden practitioner are a small minority or a large sect is NOT THE ISSUE. Everyone has rights. Freedom and religious rights. Just because shugdenites are a so called alleged minority should not be the basis to have a ban on their form of worship.
If the Dalai lama wants the minority Tibetans (6 million) to have equal rights in Majority 1.2 billion China, then he should give rights to the ‘minority’ shugden practitioners within the ‘majority’ exile Tibetan communities.
Comrade Tsarong Tashi Pelbar: We’ve called your bluff and you are unable to cover up now. Too many fundamental factual errors to be convincing. Why would a middle aged Tibetan need translations if he had “practised for 47 years”? Why would a ‘Tibetan living in Canada’ have reems of Shugden praises at the ready to cut and paste? You are yellow in three ways:
1. your imaginary pundit’s hat,
2. you are a coward
3. you are a paid Chinese agent.
Where are your white instant converts and fans now to back you up?–,they evaporated back into your sick hateful mind.
Gyakpa: We do beleive that your mother gave you the name “Shit” when she smelled your breath, too much Chinese pork products maybe?. Or maybe like the greatest genocidal killer in human history, Mao Tsetung, you don’t brush your teeth and smoke cigarettes.
What a transparently nasty little creep you are polluting cyberspace.
Dear Friends of NKT and Shugden, you can’t fool me. Some Westerners seem to lack the experience of how a (communist) dictatorship is functioning and how they set up their propganda.
I am a bit tired of observing again and again how some Shugdenpas issue their pov in a way not different to (communist) propaganda means - spinning the facts, stating ony half of the truth or leaving out points which contradict the own pov.
Lets clarify at least some points: Trijang Rinpoche was one of the tutors of HHDL, and HHDL had many tutors. Two main tutors were being in his service, Ling Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche. In his autobiography HH the Dalai Lama says that Tathag Rinpoche “was undoubtly my most important guru”. (Freedom in Exile, p 68)
Though HHDL mentions Trijang Rinpoche in his commentary on the Lama Choepa as his “root guru” this doesn’t mean that he was the only or sole root guru and it could also mean that he refers to him in this context ‘just’ as his root guru in the context of Tantric transmission of the commentary of the Lama Choepa. Both perspectives are the common approach within Tibetan Buddhism.
However some Shugdenpas have set up own interpretations of the Buddhist doctrine and overemphasized not only the role of Shugden but also Trijang Rinpoche and the issue of root gurus. (There is more inappropriateness in this subject than time to state here. I leave it with this.)
The key element of Shugdenpa’s – especially NKT - belief and attack against HHDL is the “logic” that Trijang Rinpoche is unfailing, that disagreeing with one’s teacher is a crime and fading out that HHDL has the choice to decide for himself who is/are his root guru/s, and what teaching is in accordance with the Dharma and what not.
None of the teachers of Je Tsongkhapa were in the stricte sense (how Shugdenpas interprete it) his root guru, Manjushri was Je Tsongkhapa’s root guru, and it could be that Buddha Shakyamuni is the root guru of HHDL. However, this is all just up to him, his private choice.
That students disagreed with their teachers and had different views and also expressed this, for this there are many examples also of lineage masters within Buddhism who show this, e.g. Atisha/Serlingpa, Chandrakirti/Isvasvarena etc. It is also clear that the Buddha and also Je Tsongkhapa and the tantric texts emphasise to not accept teachings which do not accord with the Dharma. A “protector” who kills those who practice also other Buddhist schools, especially Nyingmapa school, contradict quite clearly the spirit of the Dharma, to abandon and restrict such a ‘practice’ is the task of a truly compassionate and wise master, much more as this practice is feared in the other three Tibetan Buddhist schools, and much harm has been created by using it.
According to Berzin, a Tibetologist who holds an PhD from Havard University and who is the closest Western student of Tsenshab Serkong Rinpoche,:
“There is a significant difference between Shugden followers and (almost) all other Tibetan Buddhists: followers of the ‘Shugden cult’, who receive the initiation, are told that this ‘protector’ or this ‘practice’ may never be given up again. However, according to an old instruction of the master Ashvaghosha, it’s the case that one may end the teacher-student-relationship even when having received an empowerment. There can be different reasons for ending such a relationship: if one has failed to sufficiently investigate one’s teacher beforehand or if one has critically distanced oneself to him and his methods. It’s said, that one may then respectfully distance oneself from such a teacher but that one should avoid speaking harsh words about him and his practice.”
Respect your Guru does not mean slavery or to accept wrong teachings. Also the Buddha rejected in his lives as a Bodhisattva teachings which were against the Dharma.
With respect to dialogue, others and my experience withing communist dictatorship is: it is not possible to have dialogue with communist leaders or stubborn fundamentalists, they just follow the “party line” and are not able to any dialogue. That’s why in East Germany we called these people “concrete heads”. I experienced quite the same when I followed NKT. I refer now to NKT as a “Buddhist dictaorship” and many Shugdenpas (but not all!!!) I experienced as such “concrete heads” or “stubborn fundamentalists”, unable to any dialogue. For me there are many similarities, however some points are different. NKT does not kill their enemies and does not put them into jail, however the propaganda methods are quite the same.
This is my pov in this.
BTW instead of wtaching ill informed Al Jazeera reports which wrongly claims 4 million shugden practitioners I prefer well informed reports, e.g. this documentary of BBC: An unholy Row:
http://www.tibetonline.tv/shugden_issues.html
For the harm Shugden did and is praised fo by his adepts see the Yellow Book by his follower Zemed Rinpoche with oral stories passed down by Pabongkha and Trijang Rinpoche:
http://westernshugdensociety.wordpress.com/2008/10/01/sectarian-rivalry-the-yellow-book-by-zimey-rinpoche/
More can be found in the quotes of academics like Samuel, Jackson in the tricycle blog, which I have already mentioned. In that Tricycle blog there are also listed the opinions of the other head of the schools like HH Sakya Trzin or HH Mindrolling Rinpoche, as well as other eminent lamas e.g. from Kagyu school.
I think for me there is not more to add. Everybody is responsible for himself to sort out the things.
TP,
Come on, you don’t prefer more factual things, you prefer things that are more critical of the NKT or WSS because that’s the view you hold. It’s fundamentally an emotional reaction, please don’t try to kid us that you are ‘neutral’ or logical about any of this. You have a very negative view of NKT and also of Dorje Shugden
You’re not neutral - you’re as neutral as George Dreyfus (not) who ignored a wealth of information proving that Dorje Shugden was revered as a supramundane being for the past 370 years by eminent Sakya and Gelugpa Lamas who wrote many praises and rituals to him.
As for ‘concrete heads’, I never met any as fundamentalist as those who ignore the truths that there is virtually no scriptual evidence and definitely no logical evidence to support a ban on Dorje Shugden. It’s just the Dalai Lama’s wrong view that’s lead to this situation supported by people like yourself who haven’t well checked the facts which are to be found here:
http://www.dorjeshugdenhistory.org/among-shugden-texts.html
AVOID ALL PRO-SHUGDEN, NKT/WSS WEBSITES.
THERE IS A DANGER YOU WILL INFECT YOUR PC WITH CHINESE MALWARE AND SPYWARE.
THESE ARE NOT SAFE PLACES TO VISIT.
AVOID ALL ANTI-SHUGDEN, TIBETAN GOVT WEBSITES.
THERE IS DANGER YOU WILL INFECT YOUR PC WITH THE CHINESE MALWARE AND SPYWARE.
THESE ARE NOT SAFE PLACES TO VISIT
Hey Tp,
Your quote below is that Al Jazeera reports are misinformed?? Of course you would think that BECAUSE WHAT THEY SAY DOESN’T SUIT YOUR PURPOSE. Even Al Jazeera is wrong but you are right.
DIALOGUE IS VERY IMPORTANT. DALAI LAMA SHOULD BE DIFFERENT THAN THE COMMUNIST CHINESE HE LASHES OUT AGAINST BY OPENING HIMSELF FOR DIALOGUE.
BTW instead of wtaching ill informed Al Jazeera reports which wrongly claims 4 million shugden practitioners I prefer well informed reports, e.g. this documentary of BBC: An unholy Row:
http://www.tibetonline.tv/shugden_issues.html–from post120
POSTS LIKE THIS ARE DEFINITELY THE ANTI-SHUGDENISTS TRYING TO LOOK AS IF THEY ARE SO MANY OF THEM ON THIS BLOG…WHEN IT IS THE SAME PPL POSTING.
1. STYLE IS SAME-ROUGH, UNCOUTH, NO INFORMATION BUT JUST CHILDISH PERSONAL ATTACKS. REFLECTS THEIR MINDS WELL.
2.WHAT IS WRONG WITH CUT AND PASTE. THE POINT IS NOT I WROTE THOSE PRAISES TO KING DORJE SHUGDEN, BUT SO MANY HIGH ERUDITE LAMAS FOR THE LAST THREE HUNDRED YEARS HAVE WRITTEN THOSE AND IT SHOWS THAT DORJE SHUGDEN IS VERY RESPECTED.
3. PAID CHINESE SPY? SILLY. IF CHINA DID PAY PEOPLE SO EASILY, YOU WOULD OF COLLECTED SOME MONEY TO PAY YOUR BILLS ALREADY.
4. I DON’T NEED TO IMAGINE ANYTHING. DORJE SHUGDEN IS GETTING BIGGER AND WILL BECOME AN ESTABLISHED PRACTICE.
5. OF COURSE I HAVE LEGIONS OF SUPPORTERS BECAUSE THE PRACTICE OF DORJE SHUGDEN IS GROWING BY LEAPS AND BOUNDS!!!
118 胡锦涛 - April 4, 2009
Comrade Tsarong Tashi Pelbar: We’ve called your bluff and you are unable to cover up now. Too many fundamental factual errors to be convincing. Why would a middle aged Tibetan need translations if he had “practised for 47 years”? Why would a ‘Tibetan living in Canada’ have reems of Shugden praises at the ready to cut and paste? You are yellow in three ways:
1. your imaginary pundit’s hat,
2. you are a coward
3. you are a paid Chinese agent.
Where are your white instant converts and fans now to back you up?–,they evaporated back into your sick hateful mind.
STUPID PPL ON THIS BLOG TRYING TO FIGURE IF TSARONG IS TIBETAN OR NOT. WHO CARES!!! NOTHING HAPPENS.
CALLING SHUGDEN PPL A DEVIL CULT. DALAI SAYS JUMP AND YOU JUMP. YOUR THE ACTUAL CULTISTS. AND YOUR CULT LEADER IS DALAI LAMA. YOUR GODS DON’T EXIST!!
THOSE OF YOU CALLING THEM DEVIL WORSHIPPERS ARE YOU BETTER? ARE YOU SO ENLIGHTENED? JUST BATHMOUTHING THEM AND LABELLING THEM DEVIL WORSHIPPERS MAKES YOU LOOK REAL HOLY??!!! STUPID. AREN’T YOU SUPPOSE TO BE TOLERANT, PATIENT AND FORGIVING OR SOMETHING.
CULT LEADER DALAI LAMA SAYS HE FORGIVES THE CHINESE FOR KILLING 1.2 MILLION TIBETANS DURING THE TAKEOVER OF TIBET. WHILE WHY DON’T YOU ANTI-SHUGDEN CULTISTS WHO WORSHIP THE DALAI CULT FORGIVE THE SHUGDEN PEOPLE. WHY DON’T YOU FOLLOW WHAT THE DALAI PREACHES??
STUPID PEOPLE WHO FOLLOW DORJE SHUGDEN. STUPID PEOPLE WHO FOLLOW THE OLD DALAI LAMA.
THEN SOME OF YOU PUTTING YOUR SEXUALITY WITHIN YOUR OWN DESCRIPTIONS OF WHO YOU ARE!!! GEE, WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH DALAI LAMA, DORJE SHUGDEN OR SPAMMING FROM CHINA????? THAT ONE REALLY TAKES THE CAKE!!!! YOU WIN THE STUPID AWARD FOR THE DECADE!!
GET REAL.
BELOW IS THE TYPICAL ATTITUDE OF ANTI-SHUGDENISTS. THEY ARE SUPPOSE TO BE IN ‘SUPPORT’ DALAI LAMA!
DOES THEIR LANGUAGE AND PERSONAL ATTACKS ON OTHER POSTERS REFLECT THE DALAI LAMA WELL? OR DO THEY MAKE THEMSELVES LOOK LIKE ROUGHNECKS AND FURTHER DRAG THE DALAI LAMA’S IMAGE DOWN.
COMPASSION IS THE WORD BOBBY AND LEO!!!
119 胡锦涛 - April 4, 2009
Gyakpa: We do beleive that your mother gave you the name “Shit” when she smelled your breath, too much Chinese pork products maybe?. Or maybe like the greatest genocidal killer in human history, Mao Tsetung, you don’t brush your teeth and smoke cigarettes.
What a transparently nasty little creep you are polluting cyberspace.
HEY TP, I LIKE WHAT YOU WROTE BELOW. DON’T FOLLOW LIKE A SLAVE. THAT IS PRECISELY WHY PPL DON’T FOLLOW THE DALAI LAMA’S VIEWS ON SHUGDEN.
Respect your Guru does not mean slavery or to accept wrong teachings. Also the Buddha rejected in his lives as a Bodhisattva teachings which were against the Dharma. -extracted from post 120
DALAI LAMA BE DEMOCRATIC AND HAVE OPEN DEBATES. THAT WOULD SOLVE THE ISSUE.
YOUR DECREE ON THE BAN HAS CREATED SO MUCH UPSET. WE APPEAL TO YOU TO DO SOMETHING.
IT IS UNETHICAL. IT IS UNDEMOCRATIC. IT DOES NOT BEFIT YOUR SERMONS.
HEY TP,
WAS HH YONGZIN KYABJE TRIJANG RINPOCHE A MEMBER OF WSS?
WAS HE MEMBER OF NKT?
WAS HE A PAID CHINESE SPY?
WAS HE BEING PAID BY THE CHINESE?
THE ANSWERS TO THE ABOVE IS NO.
HE WAS ONE OF THE GREATEST LAMAS OF THE 2OTH CENTURY TO ESCAPE TIBET TOGETHER IN THE SAME GROUP WITH DALAI LAMA.
HE WAS A SINCERE PRACTITIONER, GREAT SCHOLAR, ERUDITE MASTER, SUBLIME LINEAGE HOLDER AND THE TUTOR THE 14TH DALAI LAMA FOR OVER 30 YEARS.
NO ONE CAN DRAG DOWN THIS GREAT LINEAGE MASTER AND TUTOR TO THE DALAI LAMA.
VERY IMPORTANT MESSAGE:
AVOID ALL ANTI-SHUGDEN, TIBETAN GOVT WEBSITES.
THERE IS DANGER YOU WILL INFECT YOUR PC WITH THE CHINESE MALWARE AND SPYWARE.
THESE ARE NOT SAFE PLACES TO VISIT
AVOID ALL TIBETAN GOVERNMENTAL WEBSITES. AVOID ALL ANTI-SHUGDEN WEBSITES.
VERY DANGEROUS.
MY PC WAS HIT WITH SPAMWARE.
DALAI LAMA ONLY HAS A FEW YEARS LEFT.
BEFORE YOU LEAVE THIS EARTH, PLEASE BRING PEACE TO YOUR PRACTITIONERS AND PEOPLE.
BE NICE TO THE CHINESE GOVT. IF YOUR NICE TO THEM AND RECONCILE, YOU ARE JUST ONE PERSON AND IT WOULD BENEFIT MILLIONS. SWALLOW YOUR STANCE. IT WILL NOT GET ANYWHERE.
STOP INCITING YOUR PEOPLE TO MORE AND MORE UNNECESSARY RELIGIOUS POLITICS. BE A FAIR BUDDHIST POPE.
TIBET SHOULD BE FREE, BUT IT CANNOT BE DUE TO THE MISHANDLING OF YOUR GOVT PRIOR TO 1959. LOSING YOUR COUNTRY IS A REFLECTION OF YOUR GOVT.
NOT GETTING TIBET BACK NOW EITHER AS A INDEPENDENT COUNTRY OR AS A AUTONOMY REPRESENTS YOUR CURRENT GOVERNMENT.
NOT GETTING ANYWHERE FOR THE LAST FIFTY YEARS TOWARDS INDEPENDENCE OR AUTONOMY MEANS YOU HAVE TO CHANGE YOUR STRATEGY NOW.
YOU, I AM SORRY TO SAY HAVE FAILED, AND SO HAS YOUR GOVT IN EXILE.
DEAR TIBETAN GOVT,
STOP HIDING YOUR FAILURES TO ACHIEVE ANY PROGRESS TO TIBET AS A FREE NATION OR EVEN AUTONOMY BY REDIRECTING THE PUBLIC FOCUS TO SHUGDEN, TWO PANCHEN LAMAS, TWO KARMAPAS, TWO DOMO GESHE RINPOCHES, CHUSHI GANGDRUK, ETC ETC.
OWN UP TO YOUR FAILURE.
DEAR DALAI LAMA,
PLEASE HAVE COMPASSION ON EVERY SINGLE SENTIENT BEING IN SAMSARA INCLUDING THE SHUGDEN PRACTITIONERS. MEET THEM. HAVE DIALOGUE. FORGIVE AND FORGET. DISCUSS THINGS OUT.
PLEASE DO THAT. YOUR TIME IS SHORT.
DEAR DALAI LAMA,
WHETHER I AM A MUSLIM, HINDU, SIKH, CHRISTIAN, ATHEIST, JEW, MORMON, KKK, OR SHUGDEN FOLLOWER, PLEASE LET ME SHAKE YOUR HAND. ATTEND YOUR INTERFAITH. BE FRIENDS. I AM A CITIZEN OF THIS WORLD JUST LIKE YOU. THE WORLD IS BECOMING SUCH A SMALL PLACE, SO MUTUAL RESPECT AND UNDERSTANDING WOULD BE MUCH NEEDED NOW BETWEEN ALL OF US.
IN YOUR COMPASSION AS A HIGH PROFILE WORLD SPIRITUAL LEADER, PLEASE FORGIVE AND FORGET AND MOVE ON. WHETHER I PRACTICE SHUGDEN OR NOT, I AM A HUMAN BEING AND DESIRE HAPPINESS. ALLOW ME RELIGIOUS FREEDOM. EVEN IF I DON’T AGREE WITH YOUR VIEWS STILL HAVE LOVE AND CARE FOR ME. PLEASE DO NOT DAMAGE MY BELIEFS AND FREEDOM OF WORSHIP ANYMORE.
I WISH NO ILL. WISH ME NONE.
OM MANI PADME HUNG.
Pabongka Rinpoche and the Gelugpa Tradition
Pabongka Rinpoche (1878-1941AD) was one of the greatest Gelugpa Lamas of the past century. He possessed many spiritual realizations and was highly revered. He was the root Guru of both the 14th Dalai Lama’s own principal teachers, Trijang Rinpoche and Ling Rinpoche; therefore, almost all the Dalai Lama’s Dharma knowledge comes from Pabongka Rinpoche.
His reputation is currently being besmirched by some detractors of Dorje Shugden, but there is an increasing amount of information about him becoming available on the Internet to show that this criticism is unfounded.
As the translator of his famous text Liberation in the Palm of Your Hand explains, Je Phabongkhapa had a profound and far-reaching influence on the Gelug tradition:
Pabongka Rinpoche was probably the most influential Gelug Lama of this century, holding all the important lineages of Sutra and Tantra, and passing them on to most of the important Gelug Lamas of the next two generations; the list of his oral discourses is vast in depth and breadth. He was also the root guru of the Kyabje Ling Rinpoche (1903-83AD), Senior Tutor of the Dalai Lama, Trijang Rinpoche, and many other highly respected teachers. His collected works occupy fifteen large volumes and over every aspect of Buddhism. If you have ever received a teaching from a Gelug Lama, you have been influenced by Pabongka Rinpoche.
Zong Rinpoche, also a highly regarded Gelug Lama, says,
Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and Kyabje Ling Rinpoche were tutors to His Holiness the Dalai Lama. They taught His Holiness everything from basic teachings to advanced levels.
Kyabje Phabongka passed all of his lineages to Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang. He often said this in discourses. The purpose of this detailed exposition is to affirm the power of the lineage. If we lose faith in the lineage, we are lost.
We should remember the biographies of past and present teachers. We should never develop negative thoughts towards our root and lineage gurus.”
THE ABOVE TAKEN FROM THOMAS..FROM http://WWW.DORJESHUGDEN.COM
What a great post. may this wish come true soon.
DEAR DALAI LAMA,
WHETHER I AM A MUSLIM, HINDU, SIKH, CHRISTIAN, ATHEIST, JEW, MORMON, KKK, OR SHUGDEN FOLLOWER, PLEASE LET ME SHAKE YOUR HAND. ATTEND YOUR INTERFAITH. BE FRIENDS. I AM A CITIZEN OF THIS WORLD JUST LIKE YOU. THE WORLD IS BECOMING SUCH A SMALL PLACE, SO MUTUAL RESPECT AND UNDERSTANDING WOULD BE MUCH NEEDED NOW BETWEEN ALL OF US.
IN YOUR COMPASSION AS A HIGH PROFILE WORLD SPIRITUAL LEADER, PLEASE FORGIVE AND FORGET AND MOVE ON. WHETHER I PRACTICE SHUGDEN OR NOT, I AM A HUMAN BEING AND DESIRE HAPPINESS. ALLOW ME RELIGIOUS FREEDOM. EVEN IF I DON’T AGREE WITH YOUR VIEWS STILL HAVE LOVE AND CARE FOR ME. PLEASE DO NOT DAMAGE MY BELIEFS AND FREEDOM OF WORSHIP ANYMORE.
I WISH NO ILL. WISH ME NONE.
OM MANI PADME HUNG.
DALAI LAMA SUMMONED TO COURT
COURT CASE AGAINST THE DALAI LAMA IS STILL IN ACTION IN NEW DELHI. SINCE THE INDIAN GOVT HAS ACCEPTED TO SEE THE CASE, IT DOES MEAN THAT THIS BAN ON DORJE SHUGDEN ON INDIAN SOIL IS ILLEGAL.
IF THERE WAS NO SUBSTANCE TO THIS FUNDAMENTAL DEMOCRATIC FREEDOM BEING INFRINGED ON INDIAN SOIL, THEN THE COURTS WOULD NEVER ALLOW IT TO PROCEED.
WHATEVER PEOPLE WANT TO SAY AGAINST THE SHUGDEN PEOPLE, THE FACTS ARE CLEAR. THE DALAI LAMA AND OR EXILE GOVT ARE GOING TO STAND TRIAL IN A COURT OF LAW IN THE LARGEST DEMOCRACY IN THE WORLD, INDIA.
HENCE WHATEVER PEOPLE WOULD LIKE TO SAY, IT WOULD NOT BE GOOD FOR THE DALAI LAMA OR HIS REPRESENTATIVE TO BE SUMMONED TO DELHI HIGH COURT IN HIS OWN HOST COUNTRY.
A NATION OF 1 BILLION DEMOCRATIC PEOPLE LIKE INDIA DEARLY TREASURE THEIR FUNDAMENTAL FREEDOM TO WORSHIP. ANY LEADER IN INDIA OR SO CALLED SPIRITUAL LEADER RESIDING IN INDIA MAY NOT BREAK THIS LAW.
Who Made Lama Zopa a Rinpoche?
This website helps me to see things better but what I as I have always believed deep in my heart the same beliefs as expressed in this website… I respect H.H. the Dalai Lama and I respect Dharmaphala Dorje Shugden. Just like my teacher Lama Yeshe who had supreme faith in H.H. and trusted Dorje Shugden his whole life till he passed away..
LAMA YESHE was the very symbol of skillful compassionate action in constant motion and he mentioned many times that Dorje Shugden made his works grow as far as it did during his life time. Lama stayed true to his root teachers such as H.H. Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, Geshe Rabten and H.H. Kyabje Zong Rinpoche showing us what guru devotion is really meant to be free of political inclinations. In his practice of Dorje Shugden, Lama never hinted even slightly of sectarianism, or disregard for any form of religion never mind Buddhism. Lama would sometimes make breakfast for us students and during breakfast go into a dharma subject we were unclear about, or praise of H.H. the Dalai Lama or one of his personal teachers. That truly was an age of ‘innocence’ sort of a way to say. Very inspiring stories at that. I miss those days before the controversies. Much simpler back then. Simpler that there was next to zero in lama-bashing, centre-bashing, lineage-bashing or siding up with H.H. the Dalai Lama for political reasons.
I am grateful to Lama for the dharma he imparted to so many. I express my gratefulness to Lama by myself never criticizing or doubting any of his practices or the practices he so compassionately gave us. If Lama can have such deep affection/faith for H.H. the Dalai Lama, tremendous effort of guru devotion in his lamas, and keep up the practice of his protector Dorje Shugden throughout his life and see no conflicts, then I will do the same in my limited capacity. I respect the Dalai Lama from my heart, but my root guru is Lama Yeshe and he advised us to practice Dorje Shugden and I will do so till the end.
If I must choose between the Dalai Lama and my root guru, Lama Yeshe, then I choose Lama Yeshe. He is the one that cared for me. Patiently taught me the dharma in a down to earth pragmatic level. Lama Yeshe was not considered to be a scholar, or have studied much or even considered learned by his own Tibetan peers. Lama Yeshe was not a Rinpoche per se, nor ‘qualified’ to sit on a throne in a monastic environment, and did not obtain his Geshe degree that some equate as qualified to teach these days, but he was instrumental to bring thousands onto the path of BuddhaDharma. He had real experiential knowledge of the dharma and was able to convey it in such a way that it would literally change the lives of hundreds as it did me.
I have met the Dalai Lama a few times and feel very fortunate, but the actual lama that took care of me was Lama Yeshe. I will view him as my refuge. In my meditations I invite Dalai Lama, Lama Zopa, Zong Rinpoche to dissolve into Lama Yeshe and then I focus on Lama Yeshe and proceed with my refuge.
Even when lama was hospitalized for the last time and ‘dying’, H.H. Kyabje Zong Rinpoche flew in to perform the rituals, prayers, ceremonies necessary. The actually cremation H.H. Zong Rinpoche again flew into Vajrapani Land in California to oversee the whole procedure. That shows us Lama’s deep guru samaya intact that on his deathbed, his great lama would personally fly in to do the rites both during his death process and again during the cremation. Lama made no conflicts between the great lamas, his lamas, lineages, schools, diverse religions and certainly not dorje shugden and I think that embodies his capacity to think from a deeper wisdom. I bow to Lama. I MISS LAMA.
I hope his students will keep their samaya clean to Lama. I hope his students will never criticize H.H. the Dalai Lama, H.H. kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, H.H. kybje Zong Rinpoche, their practices and their students. I HOPE FPMT WILL NEVER CRITICIZE DORJE SHUGDEN WHICH IS LAMA’S PERSONAL DHARMA PROTECTOR. I HOPE THAT FPMT STUDENTS WILL RESPECT LAMA’S WISHES AND PRACTICE THE DHARMA. I HOPE THEY NEVER CRITICIZE STUDENTS, CENTRES AND GREAT LAMAS WHO WISH TO CONTINUE THIS PRACTICE OF DORJE SHUGDEN. I am very happy to see Lama Yeshe sacred picture in this website’s masters sections. Many people are afraid to say the truth to look politically wrong. But that is not what the dharma is about. We should let go of attachment of this sort and just do our practice. Ego-less state of mind is the goal of our practice as Lama would say.
Also never to criticize Dorje Shugden and the practices Lama gave us SO THAT HIS CURRENT INCARNATION CAN MANIFEST AS A DHARMA TEACHER. The only way his unmistaken current incarnation can manifest as a great dharma teacher again, is if his students keep samaya clean free of politics and free of politically motivated actions in the name of dharma. Otherwise, it would be the responsibilities of the students if the current Lama Yeshe incarnation cannot perform the actions as he had set out to do. After all, if we as FPMT members criticize others who practice Dorje Shugden, then that will accumulate very heavy karma. Why? Because we destroy the faith of others in their gurus. Do we have the right to do that? Does Lama Zopa’s closeness with H.H. the Dalai Lama validate FPMT CENRES AND MEMBERS TO BE SOME KIND OF SPIRITUAL POLICE. That type of spiritual arrogance will be the downfall of any dharma organization. IT IS CONTRARY TO THE SPIRIT OF LAMA YESHE’S ASPIRATIONS. We should reflect Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa well, by never criticizing other sects, lamas, lineages, practices, Dorje Shugden, etc. Why because it contradicts Lama Yeshe’s Bodhicitta aspirations. We should not especially criticize lamas who are spiritual heirs of Sera, Gaden, Drepung or who are students of Pabongkha, Trijang, Zong Rinpoches. Why? Because they are OUR LINEAGE LAMAS ALSO AND THEY ALL PRACTICED DORJE SHUGDEN AS THEIR PRINCIPLE PROTECTOR.
After all , think, how many years will Lama Zopa be alive. If Lama Osel, doesn’t decide to take over, or manifest as in his previous life, then what will happen to FPMT after Lama Zopa is gone. I shudder to think that. So we MUST CREATE THE CAUSES FOR FPMT TO SURVIVE AND LAMA OSEL TO MANIFEST AS HIS PREVIOUS LIFE BY KEEPING OUR SAMAYA CLEAN. HELPING OTHERS TO KEEP THEIR SAMAYAS CLEAN TO THEIR LAMAS BY NEVER CRITICIZING.
We can set out to cross the bridge, but if others destroy the bridge, then to get to the other side would take much more effort after great delays. Lama Zopa is working so hard, but the sad time will come when he enters death, then if Lama Osel’s incarnation is willing to take over, it will be smooth. Otherwise what will happen. What will become of all that has been started??? That would be such a waste. So myself, I keep up my practices to create the causes for that. We cannot think of Lama’s work just expanding in our life time which it can due to Lama Zopa. But into future lifetimes. Future generations. So for that to happen, we need continuation of Lama’s successor. If we just follow along the current political tides, we may look clean and good, but simultaneously it becomes damaging to what lama’s previous incarnation practiced and that would not be very good. What’s the point if Lama’s centers and works grow now and after Lama Zopa’s passing, it stops, slows down or what not? Is spiritual attainments gained by flashing pictures we have taken together with the Dalai Lama to other centers and justifying our arrogant authoritarian ways with that? I don’t think so. I think if Dalai Lama is close to FPMT we should reflect that well by being even more humble, even more gentle, even more kind so we do not stain the name of H.H. the Dalai Lama. We cannot uplift his name or prove our guru devotion to him by putting down anything in regards to Dorje Shugden. That would be a heavy price to pay at the expense of our own Lama Yeshe’s heart protector. That is Dorje Shugden.
So when Lama was alive, we practice Dorje Shugden and Dorje shugden is ok and a Buddha.
Kopan had monthly ‘secret’ pujas to Dorje Shugden as with most of the centers. The FPMT centers that were fortunate to have a great lama/geshe living nearby would always invite them monthly to the centers to do the monthly Dorje Shugden pujas as instructed by both Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa. The young Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche who resides in Nepal was often invited to Kopan Monastery to perform incredible pujas. Even before the current new Kopan Prayer Hall was built, many preliminary pujas had to be done on the land before the foundation was set. Kopan invited Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche to perform them. Then when Dharamsala started stepping up on their anti-Shugden campaign, Kopan cut their ties with Pabongkha Rinpoche. It remains so till this day amazingly and he is the reincarnation of our lineage master!!! I was amazed when I heard that from very reliable sources. In fact, Kopan wanted to look good, that the monk administrators influenced some Taiwanese sponsors against Pabongkha Rinpoche. Rinpoche was promised by them to build a Pabongkha Monastery in Nepal, and the Taiwanese had promised to sponsor it. In order to get on Dharamsala’s good side and to get the sponsorship for themselves, Kopan administrative monks told the Taiwanese Sponsors (which I will withhold name from here) that Pabongkha Rinpoche is not following Dalai Lama’s instructions to abandon Shugden practice and that they should not support Pabongkha’s Rinpoche’s intent on building the Monastery in Nepal. Consequently it worked and unfortunately for Kopan’s karma. My question is, who put Kopan as the spiritual police in Nepal and so daringly create schism between their lineage guru’s sponsors??
Example the Delhi FPMT Branch centre in the past on monthly basis would invite the great Rongtha Gyabgon Rinpoche who lived in Ladakh Budh Vihar, New Delhi to perform the pujas at their centre every month. Dorje Shugden full puja was done at FPMT centre in Delhi monthly with great offerings. It was advised by Lama Zopa. In fact, Lama Zopa used to perform the Dorje Shugden pujas in both Kopan and Delhi himself on many occasions!!
Himalayan Yogic Institute in Katmandu had a Dorje Shugden statue in their side shrine room in a box with offerings, it would be opened from time to time as did the Delhi centre.
So Kopan is now very great, how did Dorje Shugden damage Kopan?? What was the wrong results manifesting now due to the decades that Lama Yeshe practiced Dorje Shugden and had Kopan do pujas monthly?? So if a friend helped us in the past, and we get a new friend, we simply abandon the old friend? Is that ethical or dharmic?
Then Lama dies and we don’t practice because H.H. the Dalai Lama says not to. And HH has reasons beyond our ordinary minds can conceive. Then one unfortunate day, H.H. Dalai Lama passes away (very sad time) and Lama Yeshe is back and then we again practice Dorje Shugden?? I mean that is a strange scenario. Back and forth that is.
It is very sad, because many of the FPMT centers now go on spiritual witch-hunts condemning other centers in their same cities. Using Dorje Shugden practice as negative as their ‘pure’ reasoning to take students away from their respective centers to join the nearby FPMT centers. But in fact they are just as I see it, trying to increase their own memberships. I have witnessed this. Many, many, many of the older Lama Yeshe students have gone underground with their practices of Dorje Shugden. Some like me do not really go to the centers here in the USA anymore. They will not abandon their practice of Dorje Shugden because of their great devotion to Lama Yeshe and are somewhat flabbergasted at the direction that some new FPMT centers’ are going with their arrogant witch hunts. What is important to remember is JUST BECAUSE YOU ATTEND THE DALAI LAMA’S TEACHINGS, OR HAVE TAKEN PHOTOS WITH HH DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY VALIDATE YOU AS A SPIRITUAL POLICEMAN AND GO ON WITCH-HUNTS. We must practice the essence of what HH teaches as did Lama Yeshe, which are tolerance, compassion, forgiveness and not ever slandering any lama, dharma, lineage or practice. As the karmic retributions will fall onto us. We should never mislead new FPMT students toward this line of thought. We are destroying our organization slowly if we do so.
FPMT centers citing so and so practice Dorje Shugden and so therefore they are not pure. That is so hypocritical and political because Lama Yeshe practiced and Lama Zopa was recognized as a tulku by Dorje Shugden himself. In Dorje Shugden is a ghost, then Lama Zopa’s recognition becomes nil. In fact some of the FPMT centers’ committees are in direct competition to attach students to their OWN centers for fundraising, attendance, membership, etc. So they use the heinous method of condemning Dorje Shugden to scare other centre members into joining FPMT. In fact when they do that, it is a disgrace. Older/senior FPMT students should speak up to new and younger ones who have not had the great fortune to meet our founder, Lama Yeshe.
Lama Yeshe’s main protector practice was Dorje Shugden till the end. He didn’t take an unfortunate rebirth. Dorje Shugden didn’t harm him? IF LAMA YESHE WAS PRAYING TO A GHOST, THEN WHY DIDN’T HE TAKE REBIRTH IN THE THREE LOWER REALMS??
We must think clearly and not be swept away by convenient political tides in order to fill our dharma centers with membership so it gives it a successful appearance. If that was done, what would be the cost? It would affect Lama Osel’s current incarnation in not being able to manifest as a dharma teacher. We destroy other people’s faith in their lama, and help them break their samaya with their lama, that karma would return back to us PERSONALLY AND AS A GROUP.
We as FPMT should respect our founder’s wishes and not ever criticize Dorje Shugden, his practitioners, his lineage, his followers in anyway because our founder, Lama Yeshe was one of them.
We shouldn’t practice or not practice what the current political situation pressures us to or not to. We should do what our lama says. So during Lama’s life Dorje Shugden is good and now Lama is dead, so Dorje Shugden is bad??? Wouldn’t that infer that lama was wrong, had bad degenerate practices, lacking in wisdom, had no refuge, had no attainments and wasted his life praying to a spirit?? So if lama gave us Heruka initiation and practice, then it had no blessings because lama’s refuge degenerated due to his practice of Dorje Shugden?? Since Dorje Shugden is a spirit and Lama kept up his ‘sogtae’ (Dorje Shugden’s initiation) or life entrustment practices his whole life, then all of the other practices lama did was degenerated and ineffective when passed to us.
So any practices Lama Zopa received from Lama Yeshe and passes it to others would logically be degenerate also??? Wouldn’t it?
The implications are quite big if we choose to believe that way….So that would mean many of the practices that Lama Zopa does now and gives others that are directly from Lama Yeshe are degenerated because Lama Yeshe was degenerated?? Of course not. Very dangerous line of thought. Very ruinous direction we are heading toward. I watched Lama Zopa get brow-beaten into ‘giving’ up his Dorje Shugden practices. And Lama has to be degenerated because H.H. Kyabje Trijang and Zong Rinpoches were degenerated we have to falsely assume. Both these lamas practiced Dorje Shugden till they entered parinirvana (deaths)…Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche entered into 12 days of clear light meditations in Dharamsala and Kyabje Zong Rinpoche, three days. And their unmistaken incarnations are back recognized by both H.H. the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden via his oracle again. How come they didn’t go to the Three Lower Realms since they worshipped Dorje Shugden the ‘spirit’ their whole lives in fact in all their previous many incarnations they worshipped also.
They didn’t descend into the lower realms from a lifetime of practicing and propagating a Dorje Shugden. Since these great lamas have ‘degenerated’ their refuge by the practice of Dorje Shugden which implies they have zero attainments in the first place to choose a spirit to worship, then their other practices naturally became defiled. Do we choose to believe that way of thought?? I and many others clearly don’t. It doesn’t make sense. Many teachers and thousands of their disciples around the world today are committed and practice Dorje Shugden today. Because they have been given this practice by H.H. Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and H.H. Kyabje Zong Rinpoche. They are following the commands of their root gurus, so what are they doing wrong? We switch gurus like status symbols??
These are both the root gurus of Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa. So we should not criticize other centers, lamas, students that practice Dorje Shugden. Be true to your dharma practice.
Even if hypothetically lama had given up his Dorje Shugden practices during his life, which he did not, his gurus didn’t give it up. So if his gurus did not give it up, then the practices received by Lama Yeshe would have been degenerated since his lamas are degenerated. Lama Yeshe was inviting H.H. kyabje Zong Rinpoche up till his death in the early 80’s to his centers giving teachings, initiations, transmissions and commentaries. And Dorje Shugden life empowerments to hundreds. So however you want to look at it, then many of the practice graciously conferred by lama Zopa today are in one way or another defiled or at least contaminated. Could that be so? I don’t want to go that direction.
So however many photos lama Zopa takes together with H.H. the Dalai Lama and advertised (as today, affiliations with Dalai Lama in any way would hint at authenticity/genuine practice whether you are or not) or whoever many events of H.H. are sponsored by Lama Zopa, it still cannot wash away the inner degenerate practices received from Lama Yeshe. Is that what we choose to believe? Even if Lama Zopa truly gave up his Dorje Shugden practices to be ‘absolved’, then he would have to give up all the practices that Lama Yeshe gave him also or at least don’t pass it to others. Then we have to believe the founder of our FPMT Lama Yeshe WAS WRONG.
In order to be truly clean? Just giving up Dorje Shugden wouldn’t be enough as his root lama, Lama Yeshe would have to be thought of as WRONG IN LAMA ZOPA’S DAILY MEDITATIONS. I also don’t think so. So I again request everyone to think of the implications.
I am grateful to Dorje Shugden for assisting Lama throughout his holy life. I am grateful to H.H. the Dalai Lama to spread Dharma even further now where the seeds have been sown way back then by the greats like Lama and his contemporaries for it to grow this big now..
This website speaks the same message as Lama Yeshe did. That is guru devotion, tolerance, acceptance and using one’s wisdom mind. I thank all those who participate in it and host it.
Our great current Lama Zopa Rinpoche HIMSELF WAS RECOGNIZED AS A REINCARNATION OF LAWUDO LAMA BY DORJE SHUGDEN HIMSELF.
There was a very famous oracle of Dorje Shugden in Dromo Geshe’s Rinpoche’s Dungkar Monastery. This Monastery was visited by H.H. the Dalai Lama. When Dalai Lama visited, he was so impressed with Dorje Shugden’s prophecies via the Oracle Monk, that there and then H.H. the Dalai Lama composed the prayer and praise to Dorje Shugden. Still in use today. I am sure it is the same prayer as on the Home page of this extraordinary website.
There were many incidences of Lama Zopa wanting to become a monk or join his uncle to go to Tibet when he was very young. His mother relenting finally sent the young Lama Zopa with his uncle to Tibet where they went to Dungkar Monastery.
It was at this Monastery, the monks asked Dorje Shugden in full trance whether this young boy from Nepal was indeed a Tulku Incarnation as the young boy himself insisted that he was.
DORJE SHUGDEN CONFIRMED IT. Yes Dorje Shugden took full possession/trance of Dungkar’s oracle and conferred the Rinpoche title on Lama Zopa and till this day it still holds.
So the current holder of the whole FPMT organization, our own Lama Zopa Rinpoche, was recognized, installed and enthroned by Dorje Shugden himself as a reincarnation or a Tulku. It is on that basis that Lama Zopa received special training from Lama Yeshe.
Otherwise Lama Zopa had no formal long term training in Sera, has never studied to be a Geshe and is not a known as a scholar. He is not a Geshe of any rank. But contrary to not being a scholar-Geshe, he has excelled as a great master anyways. How kind of Dorje Shugden to know that Lama Zopa would bring many benefit to others and therefore recognize him as a true reincarnation. When Dorje Shugden recognized him as a great incarnation, everyone accepted and believed. It is believed and accepted until today WITHOUT QUESTION. So if Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit, what about Lama Zopa? Do we want to go that direction I ask again ? If Dorje Shugden is evil, then why believe Lama Zopa is an incarnation? Since Dorje Shugden pronounced it first.
Many didn’t know that Lama Zopa was recognized by Dorje Shugden himself. He is and many of the younger FPMT students can verify that with the book written by the nun Jamyang Wangmo. Excellent book.
I would recommend highly getting this book which tells you everything:
THE LAWUDO LAMA
Written by Jamyang Wangmo-Vajra Publications. You can get at any major bookstore.
The incredible thing is that it is foreworded by H.H. The Dalai Lama!
Why would His Holiness endorse this book knowing that it was Dorje Shugden who confirmed Lama Zopa’s incarnation status. Isn’t the Dalai Lama inadvertently or indirectly endorsing the recognition made by Dorje Shugden by giving a foreword to this book which is the biography of Lama Zopa Rinpoche?
See Page 172-173 of this book. Also see page 376 (footnote 250,256) where it mentions clearly that Gyachen (short for Gyachen Dorje Shugden) took possession of the oracle that day and pronounced Lama Zopa to be a true incarnation. This Dungkar Monastery oracle was famous throughout Tibet to take trance of Gyachen Dorje Shugden, Tashi Ober, Kache Marpo and Namkar Barzin. Kache Marpo and Namkar Barzin both being Dorje Shugden’s main entourage.
In fact many of the great masters mentioned in this book took Dorje Shugden as their principle protector. Masters such as Serkong Dorje Chang, Geshe Rabten , Zong Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche, Trehor Kyorpon Rinpoche, etc etc. It seems many of the Lamas connected to Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa are great Practitioners of Dorje Shugden.
We of FPMT, especially the people who joined after Lama Yeshe’s passing should think of the future from a wide scope. Our founding father was a sound Dorje Shugden practitioner, and his legacy was passed to Lama Zopa who was invested as a Tulku by Dorje Shugden. Our lineage lamas all practiced Dorje Shugden as their principle protector. We must not criticize this protector in any way.
If he was so bad, or truly a spirit, do you think all the dharma protectors of Tibet cannot out beat him? Do you think the Dalai Lama cannot do some wrathful pujas and just subdue him as was done to Nechung (In Exile From The Land Of Snows-Wisdom Publications by John F. Avedon. Chapter: Wheel of Protection pgs 238-270). Could it be that and evil spirit can harm the Dalai Lama’s life, merits and activities? If he can be harmed, then what is the point we take refuge?
We must think deeper, harder and refrain from actions of body, speech and mind to get immediate benefit. We must think of our organization, the dharma, and our personal growth on a long term basis. Into our future lives.
I hope all that read this would understand better.
That is my hope to write. As I have not said anything for over twenty years.
Yeshe
extracted from original source
DALAI LAMA SUMMONED TO COURT
COURT CASE AGAINST THE DALAI LAMA IS STILL IN ACTION IN NEW DELHI. SINCE THE INDIAN GOVT HAS ACCEPTED TO SEE THE CASE, IT DOES MEAN THAT THIS BAN ON DORJE SHUGDEN ON INDIAN SOIL IS ILLEGAL.
IF THERE WAS NO SUBSTANCE TO THIS FUNDAMENTAL DEMOCRATIC FREEDOM BEING INFRINGED ON INDIAN SOIL, THEN THE COURTS WOULD NEVER ALLOW IT TO PROCEED.
WHATEVER PEOPLE WANT TO SAY AGAINST THE SHUGDEN PEOPLE, THE FACTS ARE CLEAR. THE DALAI LAMA AND OR EXILE GOVT ARE GOING TO STAND TRIAL IN A COURT OF LAW IN THE LARGEST DEMOCRACY IN THE WORLD, INDIA.
HENCE WHATEVER PEOPLE WOULD LIKE TO SAY, IT WOULD NOT BE GOOD FOR THE DALAI LAMA OR HIS REPRESENTATIVE TO BE SUMMONED TO DELHI HIGH COURT IN HIS OWN HOST COUNTRY.
A NATION OF 1 BILLION DEMOCRATIC PEOPLE LIKE INDIA DEARLY TREASURE THEIR FUNDAMENTAL FREEDOM TO WORSHIP. ANY LEADER IN INDIA OR SO CALLED SPIRITUAL LEADER RESIDING IN INDIA MAY NOT BREAK THIS LAW.
(I hope not as this would be highly detrimental. I hope His Holiness does something to prevent this. thanks for this post)
DALAI LAMA SUMMONED TO COURT
COURT CASE AGAINST THE DALAI LAMA IS STILL IN ACTION IN NEW DELHI. SINCE THE INDIAN GOVT HAS ACCEPTED TO SEE THE CASE, IT DOES MEAN THAT THIS BAN ON DORJE SHUGDEN ON INDIAN SOIL IS ILLEGAL.
IF THERE WAS NO SUBSTANCE TO THIS FUNDAMENTAL DEMOCRATIC FREEDOM BEING INFRINGED ON INDIAN SOIL, THEN THE COURTS WOULD NEVER ALLOW IT TO PROCEED.
WHATEVER PEOPLE WANT TO SAY AGAINST THE SHUGDEN PEOPLE, THE FACTS ARE CLEAR. THE DALAI LAMA AND OR EXILE GOVT ARE GOING TO STAND TRIAL IN A COURT OF LAW IN THE LARGEST DEMOCRACY IN THE WORLD, INDIA.
HENCE WHATEVER PEOPLE WOULD LIKE TO SAY, IT WOULD NOT BE GOOD FOR THE DALAI LAMA OR HIS REPRESENTATIVE TO BE SUMMONED TO DELHI HIGH COURT IN HIS OWN HOST COUNTRY.
A NATION OF 1 BILLION DEMOCRATIC PEOPLE LIKE INDIA DEARLY TREASURE THEIR FUNDAMENTAL FREEDOM TO WORSHIP. ANY LEADER IN INDIA OR SO CALLED SPIRITUAL LEADER RESIDING IN INDIA MAY NOT BREAK THIS LAW.
boys, please do not type in capital letters, its irritating
pod yul is part of bharat, not china on BJP Party maps
don’t expect to win a frivolous lawsuit in India, although I do expect it to bankrupt you financially, spiritually you were fried long ago.
Maybe david canada can get some psych drugs from his wife to make you less insane.
GIRLS, PLEASE DON’T TYPE ANYTHING IN SMALL LETETRS, ITS IRRITATING.
IN FACT DON’T TYPE ANYTHING AT ALL, YOUR IRRITATING.
GIVE IT A REST LEO AND BOBBY…….
No lawsuit in the New Delhi High Court against the Dalai Lama of Tibet is FRIVOLOUS!!! IT’S BIG NEWS.
Pod yul is part of China on all world maps, who cares about BJP party maps.
Pod lumba gymey lumba rey. Rangzen yomarey. Rawang Yomarey!!
Tibet is part of China. No independence. No autonomy!!
DALAI LAMA IS GOING TO COURT. CHARGED WITH BREAKING INDIAN LAW!!!!! GREAT WAY TO SAY THANKS TO YOUR HOST COUNTRY.
OH OH!! COURT CASE?? IMPEACHMENT??
DALAI LAMA SUMMONED TO COURT
COURT CASE AGAINST THE DALAI LAMA IS STILL IN ACTION IN NEW DELHI. SINCE THE INDIAN GOVT HAS ACCEPTED TO SEE THE CASE, IT DOES MEAN THAT THIS BAN ON DORJE SHUGDEN ON INDIAN SOIL IS ILLEGAL.
IF THERE WAS NO SUBSTANCE TO THIS FUNDAMENTAL DEMOCRATIC FREEDOM BEING INFRINGED ON INDIAN SOIL, THEN THE COURTS WOULD NEVER ALLOW IT TO PROCEED.
WHATEVER PEOPLE WANT TO SAY AGAINST THE SHUGDEN PEOPLE, THE FACTS ARE CLEAR. THE DALAI LAMA AND OR EXILE GOVT ARE GOING TO STAND TRIAL IN A COURT OF LAW IN THE LARGEST DEMOCRACY IN THE WORLD, INDIA.
HENCE WHATEVER PEOPLE WOULD LIKE TO SAY, IT WOULD NOT BE GOOD FOR THE DALAI LAMA OR HIS REPRESENTATIVE TO BE SUMMONED TO DELHI HIGH COURT IN HIS OWN HOST COUNTRY.
A NATION OF 1 BILLION DEMOCRATIC PEOPLE LIKE INDIA DEARLY TREASURE THEIR FUNDAMENTAL FREEDOM TO WORSHIP. ANY LEADER IN INDIA OR SO CALLED SPIRITUAL LEADER RESIDING IN INDIA MAY NOT BREAK THIS LAW.
GIRLS, PLEASE DON’T TYPE ANYTHING IN SMALL LETTRS, ITS IRRITATING.
IN FACT DON’T TYPE ANYTHING AT ALL, YOUR IRRITATING. WHATEVER YOU WRITE IS IRRITATING. SHUGGIE IS IS IMMORTAL. DALAI LAMA IS NOT. AFTER THE DALAI LAMA AND YOU ARE GONE, SHUGGIE WILL RULE. ACTUALLY HE RULES NOW!!!
GIVE IT A REST LEO AND BOBBY…….
No lawsuit in the New Delhi High Court against the Dalai Lama of Tibet is FRIVOLOUS!!! IT’S BIG NEWS.
Pod yul is part of China on all world maps, who cares about BJP party maps.
Pod lumba gymey lumba rey. Rangzen yomarey. Rawang Yomarey!!
Tibet is part of China. No independence. No autonomy!!
DALAI LAMA IS GOING TO COURT. CHARGED WITH BREAKING INDIAN LAW!!!!! GREAT WAY TO SAY THANKS TO YOUR HOST COUNTRY.
INDIA SAYS NO TO DALAI LAMA’S BAN.
INDIA TELLS DALAI LAMA TO TONE IT DOWN AND STOP THE BAN.
INDIA IS TAKING DALAI LAMA TO COURT IF HE DOESN’T TONE IT DOWN!
INDIA REMINDS DALAI LAMA HE IS ON INDIAN SOIL!
INDIA’S CONSTITUTION GUARANTEES FREEDOM OF WORSHIP.
INDIA’S SPEAKS UP NOW.
INDIA REMINDS DALAI LAMA OF THEIR KINDNESS FOR FIFTY YEARS OF EXILE.
INDIA IS A DEMOCRACY NOT A DICTATORSHIP THEY REMINDED THE DALAI LAMA.
HEY,
BOBBY AND LEO AKA HU JINTAO. HOW CAN THE SHUGDEN SOCIETY GO BANKRUPT GOING TO COURT.
ISN’T IT YOU THAT claim they are being funded by the Govt of 1.2 billion people?? Don’t you think China is filthy rich due to the business deals their raking in with G-7, Europe, Asia, Australia and South America?? Hmmm..looks like everyone wants to do business with China and make them more rich. Maybe you should write in to your govts??
ANYWAYS, THEY AREN’T BEING FUNDED BY CHINA, BUT THERE ARE MULTITUDES OF SPONSORS THAT WILL GO ALL THE WAY WITH THIS COURT CASE against the undemocratic ban in democratic India.
IT’S NOT THAT EXPENSIVE IN INDIA TO GO TO COURT. The lawyers believe in the cause too so do you think they are charging?
BUT IT’S GONNA COST THE REFUGEE-TIBETAN-GOVT A PRETTY PENNY to defend.
WHERE THEY GOING TO BEG FOR THEMSELVES THIS TIME FOR COURT??
THEY SHOULDN’T FUND ANTI-SHUGDEN PROPAGANDA OR COURT, THEY SHOULD USE THE MONEY THEY BEG FROM OTHERS FOR MAYBE TAKING CARE OF THE TIBETANS SO THEY ALL STOP ESCAPING TO AMERICA, EUROPE AND AUSTRALIA??
THE TIBETANS ALL IMMIGRATING OUT OF INDIA DOESN’T MAKE THE TIBETAN GOVT IN EXILE LOOK GOOD AT ALL.
THAT’S WHAT EVERYONE THINKS EVEN THE TIBETANS THEMSELVES!!
oops did i write in big letters again…..IRRITATING AREN’T YOU??
THE END IS NEAR: You are a cult loonie not the spokesperson for India the world’s Dharmabhumi. you are not even on topic let alone able to put forth a coherent thought. If you are an example of the fruit of Shugden meditation, no thanks. Bottom line: imaginary ghoulies and ghosts are non-existent, you lose pal.
This is getting a little out of control…why do supposed buddhists even argue like this?
I practice DS..i will ALWAYS practice.
It is not evil,this is all Political.
We are not in league with China..that is paranoia.
THANK GOODNESS I AIN’T A TIBETAN REFUGEE IN INDIA. BEEN WAITIN’ FOR FREEDOM FOR THE LAST 50YEARS!!!! What happened Nechung??? What happened Mr Samdhong Prime Minister? What happened Kundun? What happened? You got a great palace in Dharamsala while I am selling sweaters on the road trying to earn a living on the roads of Delhi! oops, not suppose to say that!! I forgot, I am a happy Tibetan refugee..free tibet..death to Shugden…om mani padme hung!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WHEN CAN I GO BACK TO TIBET, I MISS ALL THE YAKS I CAN KILL AND EAT. WHAT’S GONNA HAPPEN TO ME WHEN KUNDUN PASSES AWAY…better shout shugden is a demon to look POLITICALLY CORRECT and meanwhile buy a visa to go ari…………….america!!
Tibetan Govt didn’t fail me. It is all Dorje Shugden’s fault. I didn’t even know Shugden ran the Tibetan Exile govt???? No karma. No results. Its all Dorje Shugden’s fault. It doesn’t contra Buddha’s teachings. Does it??
Forget it, let me run to majnukatilla and buy my visa real quick, it only costs rs750,000 rupees..I am going to America because Tibetan Govt DID NOT FAIL!! Hmmm…doesn’t make sense to me either.
INDIA SAYS NO TO DALAI LAMA’S BAN.
INDIA TELLS DALAI LAMA TO TONE IT DOWN AND STOP THE BAN.
INDIA IS TAKING DALAI LAMA TO COURT IF HE DOESN’T TONE IT DOWN!
INDIA REMINDS DALAI LAMA HE IS ON INDIAN SOIL!
INDIA’S CONSTITUTION GUARANTEES FREEDOM OF WORSHIP.
INDIA’S SPEAKS UP NOW.
INDIA REMINDS DALAI LAMA OF THEIR KINDNESS FOR FIFTY YEARS OF EXILE.
INDIA IS A DEMOCRACY NOT A DICTATORSHIP THEY REMINDED THE DALAI LAMA.
hey great wheel,
you are right, I am sorry. I just lost my cool cause they say that I am a chinese spy because I like shuggie.
Just because I worship Shuggie, I am bad and going to hell. That does make me sad.
Thanks for your reminder.
Back on topic please,
“For the average Internet user, the GhostNet report — and others like it — has undoubtedly caused concerns, and we have been blitzed with many emails from individuals, activists, and NGOs, asking if they are infected, whether we can help, and what we might recommend for security online. We are not a service organization, but a research and development laboratory, so there is a limit to what we can do. There are many organizations out there whose job it is to provide information security, particular for consumers. But one of the remarkable aspects of our investigation was that the main tool used by the attackers was only identified by 11 of the 34 virus scanners we employed. That is a big problem. Many of the machines that were infected by GhostNet were using Windows, and of course most of the viruses out there disproportionately affect Windows operating systems. Switching to an open source operating system, like Linux, is now highly recommended for government ministries for this reason alone.”
-Ron Deibert writes on the aims of the Information Warfare Monitor
Dorje Shugden recognizes incarnate lamas by long time student yeshe is an eye opener. Lama Yeshe is cool too.
Tenzin
Given the bad online etiiquette of fringe groups like the Shugden cultists, Chinese ultra-nationalist fanatics and freelance hate propagandists, one hopes Internet 2 will afford users better firewall and filtering capabilities.
hey namkah,
There is nothing you can do. It isn’t ONLY china doing this. There are hackers everywhere in the world. From everywhere country.
But after the Dalai lama passes away, hackers to Tibetan Sites and exiled Govt sites will stop.
Every country, has tens and thousands of hackers, spammers, etc…there is nothing you can do to stop it. Every hacker has their targets.
Talking about it Namkah gets you nowhere.
Sending viruses will never stop. So maybe Tibetans make freinds with China??
Dear THE END IS NEAR
Fantastic posts!!! Thanks for the effort.
Your posts of the vicious rants are so fantastic!!
My husband and I have a group of 20 over friends who get together to read the Mao’s red book weekly and they make up professionals from all backgrounds. We are all interested very much in learning some Chinese prison torture techniques. (Although sometimes, our work becomes an excuse to not focus on our lunatic journey more as my husband is a hobo. *sigh*)
My husband and I have downloaded a picture of Hu Jintao and placed it on a simple shrine as a start.
Much appreciations,
Kathy and Joel
HEY GYALPO,
AND THE ANTI SHUGDENISTS ARE POLITE AND NICE ???? TAKE A GOOD READ AT THE POSTS. THEY ARE VERY VULGAR FULL STOP. CAN DISH IT OUT BUT YOU CAN’T TAKE IT??
I AM LOOKING YOU UP AND CHECKING WITH THE LITHANG ELDERS IN CANADA TO CHECK UP ON YOU.
Hey, you must be tibetan, you can’t type very fast.
oh oh….bobby and leo impersonating AGAIN. And this time as kathy and joel. THAT IS REAL GOOD ETIQUETTE.
GEE, YOUR BOBBY AND LEO, THEN YOUR HU JINTAO AND NOW YOU’RE KATHY AND JOEL.
who next?? The Dalai Lama??
And oh, THE END, we noticed you read Chinese too, wow what a scholar!
Can we join your party despite the fact we are busy professionals?
If anyone ever doubted that the Dalai Lama’s actions have split the spiritual community and caused bitterness on both sides of the divide, there is plenty of evidence on this thread.
How has the Dalai Lama brought harmony to the Buddhist community when everyone is obviously suffering because of his illegal ban of a well-established Gelugpa practice? The suffering is clear for all to see. He establishes links with the Bon Tradition (who are non-Buddhist) and gets them to support his persecution of the students of his root Guru Trijang Dorjechang who are Buddhists. This is crazy!
DEAR DALAI LAMA, PLEASE GIVE RELIGIOUS FREEDOM BY RESCINDING THIS BAN ON DORJE SHUGDEN PRACTICE NOW!
Please do something good for the Buddhist community instead of creating problems.
We are partners, we adore Dorje shugden eversomuch and are going to give all our money to NKT, to spread love and well, more love.
I LOVE THE FACT THAT THE DALAI LAMA IS GOING TO COURT..ISNT THAT CUTE?? IT IS SO CUTE……its so cute. It has never happened that a Dalai lama has to go to court for breaking a democratic constitution.
When we are not busy with our careers, he’s a brain sugeon BUT OPERATED ON SAMDHONG LAMA AND HE’S NOW RETARDED and I’m President of General Motors but i crashed my car going to a gay bar WITHOUT MY PARTNER.yeah, i cheated again..
we make voodoo dolls and perform human sacrifices in our back yard….BUT HAVE STOPPED BECAUSE WE HAVE MORE FUN NOW WORKING TWO JOBS TO SAVE UP FOR A TRIP TO DELHI TO JOIN IN THE FREE TIBET MOVEMENT…oh i mean free autonomy movement….oh none of the above?? Tibet cause is lost…well we can hang out outside the court house for the court case while we’re there. …why not?? fun!
Bobby and Leo here again…
Oh shux!! Everyone knows that we are bobby and leo, Hu Jintao and Kathy and joel…looks like we made the anti-shugden people look REALLY STUPID NOW. hmmm…who’s spamming now?????
Let’s go think of another identity to use to post up and pretend we have a huge support base against shuggie..
But that court case DOES BOTHER US…..Dalai Lama GOING TO COURT IN HIS HOME COUNTRY???? SHAME.
BOBBY AND LEO HERE AGAIN..
DALAI LAMA IN HIS HOME COUNTRY GOING TO COURT….OR WAS IT HIS HOST COUNTRY OR WAS IT HE HAS NO COUNTRY???
OH DEAR….BETTER BE FRIENDS WITH CHINA…FAST…
Turn the facts upside down by giving only half of the facts from academic sources…this time I recognized Nyima who follows this approach, post #83.
1. Pehar (Nechung) is seen as the chief of the mundane protectors and Woijkowitz shows that it is believed that Shugden is in the same class of mundane protectors. (Understanding this classification, which is also the classification of Mumford and the Sakya School (all of them portray Shugden as a mundane or worldly being, it follows, since Nechung is no object of refuge also Shugden is no object of Buddhist refuge, because both are mundane spirits inappropriate for Buddhist refuge. Nobody takes refuge in Nechung but Shugdenpas nowadays take refuge in Shugden. Hence it is correct to say such a way of practice is a degeneration of Buddhism and a kind of spirit worship. Please keep in mind that Nechung bows to HHDL not otherwise and that Nechung is just asked via oracle for his opinion but to judge his opinion is up to HHDL. There are significant differences in this context see this well made documentary: Nechung the State Oracle of Tibet by David Cherniack http://www.buddhistmedia.com/uitzending.aspx?lIntEntityId=182&lIntType=0&lIntYear=2006 )
2. Woijkowitz states on page 4 that - unlike Pehar (Nechung) who is recognized by all four Buddhist schools [and properly bound by oath by Padmasambhava] - Shugden is only recognized by Gelugpas and Shakyapas. He adds, that “especially [Gelugpa] claiming he is a powerful guardian and protector of their doctrine against detrimental influence coming from the side of the old Nyingmapa school.”
In his chapter on Shugden page 134, De Nebesky-Wojkowitz states in the same book:
This sounds quite a bit different compared with Nyima’s quote from elsewhere of the book, and Nyimas claim “Wow, Dorje Shugden is going to take over Nechung as the chief dharmapala of Tibet!”.
There have been many trials by Shugdenpas - especially in Wikipedia - to misrepresent academic sources. Another example is the beloved quote by Mumford - an anthropologist.
Shugdenpas quote:
“In Gyasumdo the lamas are Nyingmapa, yet most of them honor Shugs-ldan as a lineage guardian picked up in Tibet in the past by their patriline ” then claiming “How ironic that Dorje Shugden should be praised in a Nyingma Tantra! It seems he’s not ‘anti-Nyingma’ at all, as some on this list would have us believe (however, we already knew this. How can a Buddha be anti-anything?)”
However the full quote which is mainly an annotation by Mumford reads this way:
page 135:
”Tibetans in Kathmandu regard Shugden as a guardian honored by those who adhere to the Gelug sect, while members of the Nyingma sect think of Shugden as their enemy, sent against them by the rival sect. But in the villages these sectarian differences are not well understood. In Gyasumdo the lamas are Nyingmapa, yet most of them honor Shugs-ldan as a lineage guardian picked up in Tibet in the past by their patriline.”
For more see the Tricycle thread http://blog.tricycle.com/?p=741 and use the search function of the browser. Some people and I added a lot quotes from academic research which are neither misleading half-quotes (incomplete) nor spin the source. Use for search key words “Samuel” “Mumford” “Kay” “Wojkowitz” “Jackson” “Wojkowitz” and “von Brück” the quotes refer to proper academic research of those authors.
I conclude this time with a quote from a Nyingma Lama, Chagdud Tulku.
Lord of the Dance: The Autobiography of A Tibetan Lama By Chagdud Tulku, Padma Publishing, 1992, Pilgrims Publishers Edition, Kathmandu 2001
A full quote of Pabongkha Rinpoche which is often repeated in the Tricycle blog showing his opinion may be as well helpful as the point of view of Sakya scholar T. G. Dhongthog Rinpoche especially “The Earth Shaking Thunder of True Word” published 2000, Sapan Institute, Washington, excerpt: http://mypage.direct.ca/w/wattj/images/page-4.jpg
I forgot of course to mention Prof. Dreyfus’ work which is well accepted among scholars. (LH brought it to my mind again).
Now with respect to some responses by LH, “RESPECT YOUR GURU” etc. I have made up my own mind on this. I had 6 1/2 years direct experience with Shugdenpas and their point of view and I had the same amount of time without them and the opportunity to ask many highly realized lamas from all the four Tibetan Buddhist schools. I do not claim to be neutral or non-neutral, I have my opinion, like everybody else. However unlike many NKTpas and Shugdenpas, I studied and heard both sides very well from their eminent lamas, including Kelsang Gyatso, Kundeling Lama, Gangchen Lama, and Dagom Rinpoche, at the side of Shugdenpas as well as all their reports and most of their videos, and I had the opportunity to ask different eminent Nyingma lamas, Gelug and Kagyue lamas, and heard directly or studied their pov and opinion including their reasons. To get certainty I used finally all available reliable academic sources, and origin statements of the head of the Four Tibetan Shoolks to judge all what I have heard, that’s why I can say “Dear Friends of NKT and Shugden, you can’t fool me. ”
With respect to the Indian court case, I don’t know the Indian law system and procedures, however I know personally Nga Lama who is issuing this court case and who was introduced to us by Kelsang Gyatso as “a very good friend”. As a witness of the actions of both I have my doubts on their reliability and I am sure the court will find out what’s right and what’s wrong according to the laws of the country.
With respect to dialogue this is a rather complex issue. How less it functions when on the other side of the table there are ideological fundamentalists may be difficult to understood by those having no experience with this, however the decade long non-results between the TGIE and the PRC may give an idea on this.
LOOK AT THIS POST BELOW BY BOBBY AND LEO IMPERSONATING AS HU JINTAO….gee are you the results of the heavy karma for criticizing shuggie???? You sound insane…get help…
Better get Shuggie’s sadhana and start quick!!!! He is very compassionate and will forgive you..
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bobby and leo, the partners, as Ju Jintao below….gee they must be paid by China to create schism within the tibetan community taking whatever stance they can….
胡锦涛 - April 4, 2009
THE END IS NEAR: You are a cult loonie not the spokesperson for India the world’s Dharmabhumi. you are not even on topic let alone able to put forth a coherent thought. If you are an example of the fruit of Shugden meditation, no thanks. Bottom line: imaginary ghoulies and ghosts are non-existent, you lose pal.
Tp,
Whoever brought the court case to the Indian courts, whether it’s Nga lama, or Ma lamaor your mother, doesn’t make a difference.
THE FACT IS THAT THE INDIAN JUDICIAL SYSTEM ACCEPTS IT AS A CASE TO BE HEARD IN COURT. AND IT WILL GO TO COURT.
THAT IS DEMOCRACY, ANYONE CAN BE HEARD, AS LONG AS IT IS A VALID CLAIM.
AND APPARENTLY IT IS…
Well Nyima, the claims may appear to be valid or worthwhile to check. Now lets wait for the results. BTW, Tibet scholar Barnett holds this view:
“[..] since its form of spirit-worship is heterodox, provocative and highly sectarian in Buddhist terms and so more than likely to be banned from mainstream monasteries – while its claimed concerns about cases of discrimination in India should be addressed by working within the Tibetan community instead of opportunistically attacking the Dalai Lama in order to provoke misinformed publicity for their sect.”
If there are cases of discrimination or illegal actions they should be exposed and corrected and justice should be restored. There is no general ban as it is claimed wrongly by Shugdenpas. People can practice it privately. The removal of the practice from the monasteries was a quite needed step. There are many reasons for this and the far majority of all the abbots, masters, and monastics agrees in this with HHDL.
Hey Tp,
You have quoted correctly. Dorje Shugden will take over the abode of Nechung. What does that mean? It means that Nechung’s time as the Main Protector of Tibet is nearly over and Dorje Shugden is going to take over as the King of Jigtenpa sungmas. King of worldly deities.
Dorje shugden is a emanation of Manjushri in worldy form to benefit those of low merits in kaliyuga. Just like Amitabah emanates as the great line of Panchen Lamas in worldly form to benefit others. Manjushri has unlimited emanations not limited to just enlightened forms. He can emanate as mahasiddhas, beer sellers, demons, spirits, lamas, kings, geshes and whatever is necessary to tame the mind.
In ORACLES AND DEMONS OF TIBET, see chapter 12 pages 445-447…where it mentions that Dorje Shugden is waiting at the Southern Gate of Nechung temple ready to enter. It also has a map of Nechung Temple on pg 447 showing the entrance way.
If Dorje Shugden is waiting to enter Nechung Temple, what does that tell you. How can an evil spirit enter the state oracle’s Temple?
That shows clearly the nature of Manjunatha Dorje Shugden.
I hope this helps,
Nyima
-below extracted from post 166 from TP.——————————————————–
In his chapter on Shugden page 134, De Nebesky-Wojkowitz states in the same book:
A Tibetan tradition claims that the guardian-deity rDo rje shugs Idan, “Powerful Thunderbolt”, will succeed Pe har as the head of all ‘jig rten pai srung ma [mundane protectors] once the latter god advances into the rank of those guardian-deities who stand already outside the wordly spheres. Compared with other dharmapalas, rDo rje shugs Idan - who bears the titles dgra lha’i rgyal chen, “great king of the dgra lha” and srog bdag, “life-master” - is a divinity of comparatively recent origin. The following legend explains, how and when rDo rje shugs Idan came into existence….
This sounds quite a bit different compared with Nyima’s quote from elsewhere of the book, and Nyimas claim “Wow, Dorje Shugden is going to take over Nechung as the chief dharmapala of Tibet!”.
Tp,
Yes we will have to wait for the verdict of the Delhi High court.
Whether dorje shugden is evil or not is subjective.
Just like many in the world have various views that Buddha is sacred or not. Some believe in the Buddha and some find his image offensive. Subjective again. But no democratic country may ban the worship of Buddha. Or officially speak out against him.
But the FACT IS: NO spiritual or secular leader based on democracy can ban any religious practice or constantly speak out against it. Speaking out against is DEFAMATION IN THE COURT OF LAW ALSO.
So it would be good politics for H.H. the Dalai Lama to withdraw his statements on the demonization of Dorje Shugden. It hurts the sentiments of many. Whether the Shugden group are a minority or not, makes no difference. MINORITES HAVE FREEDOM OF WORSHIP RIGHTS ALSO UNDER THE LAW.
Bottom line, the way HHDL runs the Tibetan Govt and governs his people must change. We are not in Tibet anymore and the world has changed.
Tp,
I can see, you don’t simply talk or spout out negative words.
Your mind can understand things if given evidence. Please, may I impore you to investigate further into all of this using various websites available on Dorje Shugden.
Investigate more with a objective mind which you should not find difficult at all.
You don’t have to practice Dorje Shugden. You may practice any faith you like, and I respect that. But please don’t ban or degrade my choice. Please respect the fact that I do practice Dorje Shugden. Dorje Shugden has helped me and my family on many occasions that are beyond a doubt. He has asked nothing back except for me to study Lam Rim, be devoted to my lamas, and do not harm others.
When we consult Dorje Shugden through a qualified oracle monk in which he takes trance to speak, he only gives advice according to the Dharma. He has never bad mouthed H.H. the Dalai lama and he advises us not to also. He is a compassionate being and I believe and trust Dorje Shugden from the depths of my heart without any intent to harm other or offend others.
I just wish to practice my faith without being ostracized and witch-hunted.
Please do think what I am saying.
Thanks,
Nyima
DEAR YESHE,
THANKS FOR POSTING THIS PRIVATE SHARING (below). IT MAKES ME THINK MUCH MORE. IT WILL MAKE ME CONTEMPLATE FOR MANY MORE DAYS. DORJE SHUGDEN IS BEHIND THIS…MAKES ME THINK MORE DIFFERENTLY ABOUT DORJE SHUGDEN.
Good luck to you,
Paul
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DORJE HAS RECOGNIZED MANY INCARNATE LAMAS - April 4, 2009
Who Made Lama Zopa a Rinpoche?
This website helps me to see things better but what I as I have always believed deep in my heart the same beliefs as expressed in this website… I respect H.H. the Dalai Lama and I respect Dharmaphala Dorje Shugden. Just like my teacher Lama Yeshe who had supreme faith in H.H. and trusted Dorje Shugden his whole life till he passed away..
LAMA YESHE was the very symbol of skillful compassionate action in constant motion and he mentioned many times that Dorje Shugden made his works grow as far as it did during his life time. Lama stayed true to his root teachers such as H.H. Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, Geshe Rabten and H.H. Kyabje Zong Rinpoche showing us what guru devotion is really meant to be free of political inclinations. In his practice of Dorje Shugden, Lama never hinted even slightly of sectarianism, or disregard for any form of religion never mind Buddhism. Lama would sometimes make breakfast for us students and during breakfast go into a dharma subject we were unclear about, or praise of H.H. the Dalai Lama or one of his personal teachers. That truly was an age of ‘innocence’ sort of a way to say. Very inspiring stories at that. I miss those days before the controversies. Much simpler back then. Simpler that there was next to zero in lama-bashing, centre-bashing, lineage-bashing or siding up with H.H. the Dalai Lama for political reasons.
I am grateful to Lama for the dharma he imparted to so many. I express my gratefulness to Lama by myself never criticizing or doubting any of his practices or the practices he so compassionately gave us. If Lama can have such deep affection/faith for H.H. the Dalai Lama, tremendous effort of guru devotion in his lamas, and keep up the practice of his protector Dorje Shugden throughout his life and see no conflicts, then I will do the same in my limited capacity. I respect the Dalai Lama from my heart, but my root guru is Lama Yeshe and he advised us to practice Dorje Shugden and I will do so till the end.
If I must choose between the Dalai Lama and my root guru, Lama Yeshe, then I choose Lama Yeshe. He is the one that cared for me. Patiently taught me the dharma in a down to earth pragmatic level. Lama Yeshe was not considered to be a scholar, or have studied much or even considered learned by his own Tibetan peers. Lama Yeshe was not a Rinpoche per se, nor ‘qualified’ to sit on a throne in a monastic environment, and did not obtain his Geshe degree that some equate as qualified to teach these days, but he was instrumental to bring thousands onto the path of BuddhaDharma. He had real experiential knowledge of the dharma and was able to convey it in such a way that it would literally change the lives of hundreds as it did me.
I have met the Dalai Lama a few times and feel very fortunate, but the actual lama that took care of me was Lama Yeshe. I will view him as my refuge. In my meditations I invite Dalai Lama, Lama Zopa, Zong Rinpoche to dissolve into Lama Yeshe and then I focus on Lama Yeshe and proceed with my refuge.
Even when lama was hospitalized for the last time and ‘dying’, H.H. Kyabje Zong Rinpoche flew in to perform the rituals, prayers, ceremonies necessary. The actually cremation H.H. Zong Rinpoche again flew into Vajrapani Land in California to oversee the whole procedure. That shows us Lama’s deep guru samaya intact that on his deathbed, his great lama would personally fly in to do the rites both during his death process and again during the cremation. Lama made no conflicts between the great lamas, his lamas, lineages, schools, diverse religions and certainly not dorje shugden and I think that embodies his capacity to think from a deeper wisdom. I bow to Lama. I MISS LAMA.
I hope his students will keep their samaya clean to Lama. I hope his students will never criticize H.H. the Dalai Lama, H.H. kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, H.H. kybje Zong Rinpoche, their practices and their students. I HOPE FPMT WILL NEVER CRITICIZE DORJE SHUGDEN WHICH IS LAMA’S PERSONAL DHARMA PROTECTOR. I HOPE THAT FPMT STUDENTS WILL RESPECT LAMA’S WISHES AND PRACTICE THE DHARMA. I HOPE THEY NEVER CRITICIZE STUDENTS, CENTRES AND GREAT LAMAS WHO WISH TO CONTINUE THIS PRACTICE OF DORJE SHUGDEN. I am very happy to see Lama Yeshe sacred picture in this website’s masters sections. Many people are afraid to say the truth to look politically wrong. But that is not what the dharma is about. We should let go of attachment of this sort and just do our practice. Ego-less state of mind is the goal of our practice as Lama would say.
Also never to criticize Dorje Shugden and the practices Lama gave us SO THAT HIS CURRENT INCARNATION CAN MANIFEST AS A DHARMA TEACHER. The only way his unmistaken current incarnation can manifest as a great dharma teacher again, is if his students keep samaya clean free of politics and free of politically motivated actions in the name of dharma. Otherwise, it would be the responsibilities of the students if the current Lama Yeshe incarnation cannot perform the actions as he had set out to do. After all, if we as FPMT members criticize others who practice Dorje Shugden, then that will accumulate very heavy karma. Why? Because we destroy the faith of others in their gurus. Do we have the right to do that? Does Lama Zopa’s closeness with H.H. the Dalai Lama validate FPMT CENRES AND MEMBERS TO BE SOME KIND OF SPIRITUAL POLICE. That type of spiritual arrogance will be the downfall of any dharma organization. IT IS CONTRARY TO THE SPIRIT OF LAMA YESHE’S ASPIRATIONS. We should reflect Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa well, by never criticizing other sects, lamas, lineages, practices, Dorje Shugden, etc. Why because it contradicts Lama Yeshe’s Bodhicitta aspirations. We should not especially criticize lamas who are spiritual heirs of Sera, Gaden, Drepung or who are students of Pabongkha, Trijang, Zong Rinpoches. Why? Because they are OUR LINEAGE LAMAS ALSO AND THEY ALL PRACTICED DORJE SHUGDEN AS THEIR PRINCIPLE PROTECTOR.
After all , think, how many years will Lama Zopa be alive. If Lama Osel, doesn’t decide to take over, or manifest as in his previous life, then what will happen to FPMT after Lama Zopa is gone. I shudder to think that. So we MUST CREATE THE CAUSES FOR FPMT TO SURVIVE AND LAMA OSEL TO MANIFEST AS HIS PREVIOUS LIFE BY KEEPING OUR SAMAYA CLEAN. HELPING OTHERS TO KEEP THEIR SAMAYAS CLEAN TO THEIR LAMAS BY NEVER CRITICIZING.
We can set out to cross the bridge, but if others destroy the bridge, then to get to the other side would take much more effort after great delays. Lama Zopa is working so hard, but the sad time will come when he enters death, then if Lama Osel’s incarnation is willing to take over, it will be smooth. Otherwise what will happen. What will become of all that has been started??? That would be such a waste. So myself, I keep up my practices to create the causes for that. We cannot think of Lama’s work just expanding in our life time which it can due to Lama Zopa. But into future lifetimes. Future generations. So for that to happen, we need continuation of Lama’s successor. If we just follow along the current political tides, we may look clean and good, but simultaneously it becomes damaging to what lama’s previous incarnation practiced and that would not be very good. What’s the point if Lama’s centers and works grow now and after Lama Zopa’s passing, it stops, slows down or what not? Is spiritual attainments gained by flashing pictures we have taken together with the Dalai Lama to other centers and justifying our arrogant authoritarian ways with that? I don’t think so. I think if Dalai Lama is close to FPMT we should reflect that well by being even more humble, even more gentle, even more kind so we do not stain the name of H.H. the Dalai Lama. We cannot uplift his name or prove our guru devotion to him by putting down anything in regards to Dorje Shugden. That would be a heavy price to pay at the expense of our own Lama Yeshe’s heart protector. That is Dorje Shugden.
So when Lama was alive, we practice Dorje Shugden and Dorje shugden is ok and a Buddha.
Kopan had monthly ‘secret’ pujas to Dorje Shugden as with most of the centers. The FPMT centers that were fortunate to have a great lama/geshe living nearby would always invite them monthly to the centers to do the monthly Dorje Shugden pujas as instructed by both Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa. The young Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche who resides in Nepal was often invited to Kopan Monastery to perform incredible pujas. Even before the current new Kopan Prayer Hall was built, many preliminary pujas had to be done on the land before the foundation was set. Kopan invited Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche to perform them. Then when Dharamsala started stepping up on their anti-Shugden campaign, Kopan cut their ties with Pabongkha Rinpoche. It remains so till this day amazingly and he is the reincarnation of our lineage master!!! I was amazed when I heard that from very reliable sources. In fact, Kopan wanted to look good, that the monk administrators influenced some Taiwanese sponsors against Pabongkha Rinpoche. Rinpoche was promised by them to build a Pabongkha Monastery in Nepal, and the Taiwanese had promised to sponsor it. In order to get on Dharamsala’s good side and to get the sponsorship for themselves, Kopan administrative monks told the Taiwanese Sponsors (which I will withhold name from here) that Pabongkha Rinpoche is not following Dalai Lama’s instructions to abandon Shugden practice and that they should not support Pabongkha’s Rinpoche’s intent on building the Monastery in Nepal. Consequently it worked and unfortunately for Kopan’s karma. My question is, who put Kopan as the spiritual police in Nepal and so daringly create schism between their lineage guru’s sponsors??
Example the Delhi FPMT Branch centre in the past on monthly basis would invite the great Rongtha Gyabgon Rinpoche who lived in Ladakh Budh Vihar, New Delhi to perform the pujas at their centre every month. Dorje Shugden full puja was done at FPMT centre in Delhi monthly with great offerings. It was advised by Lama Zopa. In fact, Lama Zopa used to perform the Dorje Shugden pujas in both Kopan and Delhi himself on many occasions!!
Himalayan Yogic Institute in Katmandu had a Dorje Shugden statue in their side shrine room in a box with offerings, it would be opened from time to time as did the Delhi centre.
So Kopan is now very great, how did Dorje Shugden damage Kopan?? What was the wrong results manifesting now due to the decades that Lama Yeshe practiced Dorje Shugden and had Kopan do pujas monthly?? So if a friend helped us in the past, and we get a new friend, we simply abandon the old friend? Is that ethical or dharmic?
Then Lama dies and we don’t practice because H.H. the Dalai Lama says not to. And HH has reasons beyond our ordinary minds can conceive. Then one unfortunate day, H.H. Dalai Lama passes away (very sad time) and Lama Yeshe is back and then we again practice Dorje Shugden?? I mean that is a strange scenario. Back and forth that is.
It is very sad, because many of the FPMT centers now go on spiritual witch-hunts condemning other centers in their same cities. Using Dorje Shugden practice as negative as their ‘pure’ reasoning to take students away from their respective centers to join the nearby FPMT centers. But in fact they are just as I see it, trying to increase their own memberships. I have witnessed this. Many, many, many of the older Lama Yeshe students have gone underground with their practices of Dorje Shugden. Some like me do not really go to the centers here in the USA anymore. They will not abandon their practice of Dorje Shugden because of their great devotion to Lama Yeshe and are somewhat flabbergasted at the direction that some new FPMT centers’ are going with their arrogant witch hunts. What is important to remember is JUST BECAUSE YOU ATTEND THE DALAI LAMA’S TEACHINGS, OR HAVE TAKEN PHOTOS WITH HH DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY VALIDATE YOU AS A SPIRITUAL POLICEMAN AND GO ON WITCH-HUNTS. We must practice the essence of what HH teaches as did Lama Yeshe, which are tolerance, compassion, forgiveness and not ever slandering any lama, dharma, lineage or practice. As the karmic retributions will fall onto us. We should never mislead new FPMT students toward this line of thought. We are destroying our organization slowly if we do so.
FPMT centers citing so and so practice Dorje Shugden and so therefore they are not pure. That is so hypocritical and political because Lama Yeshe practiced and Lama Zopa was recognized as a tulku by Dorje Shugden himself. In Dorje Shugden is a ghost, then Lama Zopa’s recognition becomes nil. In fact some of the FPMT centers’ committees are in direct competition to attach students to their OWN centers for fundraising, attendance, membership, etc. So they use the heinous method of condemning Dorje Shugden to scare other centre members into joining FPMT. In fact when they do that, it is a disgrace. Older/senior FPMT students should speak up to new and younger ones who have not had the great fortune to meet our founder, Lama Yeshe.
Lama Yeshe’s main protector practice was Dorje Shugden till the end. He didn’t take an unfortunate rebirth. Dorje Shugden didn’t harm him? IF LAMA YESHE WAS PRAYING TO A GHOST, THEN WHY DIDN’T HE TAKE REBIRTH IN THE THREE LOWER REALMS??
We must think clearly and not be swept away by convenient political tides in order to fill our dharma centers with membership so it gives it a successful appearance. If that was done, what would be the cost? It would affect Lama Osel’s current incarnation in not being able to manifest as a dharma teacher. We destroy other people’s faith in their lama, and help them break their samaya with their lama, that karma would return back to us PERSONALLY AND AS A GROUP.
We as FPMT should respect our founder’s wishes and not ever criticize Dorje Shugden, his practitioners, his lineage, his followers in anyway because our founder, Lama Yeshe was one of them.
We shouldn’t practice or not practice what the current political situation pressures us to or not to. We should do what our lama says. So during Lama’s life Dorje Shugden is good and now Lama is dead, so Dorje Shugden is bad??? Wouldn’t that infer that lama was wrong, had bad degenerate practices, lacking in wisdom, had no refuge, had no attainments and wasted his life praying to a spirit?? So if lama gave us Heruka initiation and practice, then it had no blessings because lama’s refuge degenerated due to his practice of Dorje Shugden?? Since Dorje Shugden is a spirit and Lama kept up his ‘sogtae’ (Dorje Shugden’s initiation) or life entrustment practices his whole life, then all of the other practices lama did was degenerated and ineffective when passed to us.
So any practices Lama Zopa received from Lama Yeshe and passes it to others would logically be degenerate also??? Wouldn’t it?
The implications are quite big if we choose to believe that way….So that would mean many of the practices that Lama Zopa does now and gives others that are directly from Lama Yeshe are degenerated because Lama Yeshe was degenerated?? Of course not. Very dangerous line of thought. Very ruinous direction we are heading toward. I watched Lama Zopa get brow-beaten into ‘giving’ up his Dorje Shugden practices. And Lama has to be degenerated because H.H. Kyabje Trijang and Zong Rinpoches were degenerated we have to falsely assume. Both these lamas practiced Dorje Shugden till they entered parinirvana (deaths)…Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche entered into 12 days of clear light meditations in Dharamsala and Kyabje Zong Rinpoche, three days. And their unmistaken incarnations are back recognized by both H.H. the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden via his oracle again. How come they didn’t go to the Three Lower Realms since they worshipped Dorje Shugden the ‘spirit’ their whole lives in fact in all their previous many incarnations they worshipped also.
They didn’t descend into the lower realms from a lifetime of practicing and propagating a Dorje Shugden. Since these great lamas have ‘degenerated’ their refuge by the practice of Dorje Shugden which implies they have zero attainments in the first place to choose a spirit to worship, then their other practices naturally became defiled. Do we choose to believe that way of thought?? I and many others clearly don’t. It doesn’t make sense. Many teachers and thousands of their disciples around the world today are committed and practice Dorje Shugden today. Because they have been given this practice by H.H. Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche and H.H. Kyabje Zong Rinpoche. They are following the commands of their root gurus, so what are they doing wrong? We switch gurus like status symbols??
These are both the root gurus of Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa. So we should not criticize other centers, lamas, students that practice Dorje Shugden. Be true to your dharma practice.
Even if hypothetically lama had given up his Dorje Shugden practices during his life, which he did not, his gurus didn’t give it up. So if his gurus did not give it up, then the practices received by Lama Yeshe would have been degenerated since his lamas are degenerated. Lama Yeshe was inviting H.H. kyabje Zong Rinpoche up till his death in the early 80’s to his centers giving teachings, initiations, transmissions and commentaries. And Dorje Shugden life empowerments to hundreds. So however you want to look at it, then many of the practice graciously conferred by lama Zopa today are in one way or another defiled or at least contaminated. Could that be so? I don’t want to go that direction.
So however many photos lama Zopa takes together with H.H. the Dalai Lama and advertised (as today, affiliations with Dalai Lama in any way would hint at authenticity/genuine practice whether you are or not) or whoever many events of H.H. are sponsored by Lama Zopa, it still cannot wash away the inner degenerate practices received from Lama Yeshe. Is that what we choose to believe? Even if Lama Zopa truly gave up his Dorje Shugden practices to be ‘absolved’, then he would have to give up all the practices that Lama Yeshe gave him also or at least don’t pass it to others. Then we have to believe the founder of our FPMT Lama Yeshe WAS WRONG.
In order to be truly clean? Just giving up Dorje Shugden wouldn’t be enough as his root lama, Lama Yeshe would have to be thought of as WRONG IN LAMA ZOPA’S DAILY MEDITATIONS. I also don’t think so. So I again request everyone to think of the implications.
I am grateful to Dorje Shugden for assisting Lama throughout his holy life. I am grateful to H.H. the Dalai Lama to spread Dharma even further now where the seeds have been sown way back then by the greats like Lama and his contemporaries for it to grow this big now..
This website speaks the same message as Lama Yeshe did. That is guru devotion, tolerance, acceptance and using one’s wisdom mind. I thank all those who participate in it and host it.
Our great current Lama Zopa Rinpoche HIMSELF WAS RECOGNIZED AS A REINCARNATION OF LAWUDO LAMA BY DORJE SHUGDEN HIMSELF.
There was a very famous oracle of Dorje Shugden in Dromo Geshe’s Rinpoche’s Dungkar Monastery. This Monastery was visited by H.H. the Dalai Lama. When Dalai Lama visited, he was so impressed with Dorje Shugden’s prophecies via the Oracle Monk, that there and then H.H. the Dalai Lama composed the prayer and praise to Dorje Shugden. Still in use today. I am sure it is the same prayer as on the Home page of this extraordinary website.
There were many incidences of Lama Zopa wanting to become a monk or join his uncle to go to Tibet when he was very young. His mother relenting finally sent the young Lama Zopa with his uncle to Tibet where they went to Dungkar Monastery.
It was at this Monastery, the monks asked Dorje Shugden in full trance whether this young boy from Nepal was indeed a Tulku Incarnation as the young boy himself insisted that he was.
DORJE SHUGDEN CONFIRMED IT. Yes Dorje Shugden took full possession/trance of Dungkar’s oracle and conferred the Rinpoche title on Lama Zopa and till this day it still holds.
So the current holder of the whole FPMT organization, our own Lama Zopa Rinpoche, was recognized, installed and enthroned by Dorje Shugden himself as a reincarnation or a Tulku. It is on that basis that Lama Zopa received special training from Lama Yeshe.
Otherwise Lama Zopa had no formal long term training in Sera, has never studied to be a Geshe and is not a known as a scholar. He is not a Geshe of any rank. But contrary to not being a scholar-Geshe, he has excelled as a great master anyways. How kind of Dorje Shugden to know that Lama Zopa would bring many benefit to others and therefore recognize him as a true reincarnation. When Dorje Shugden recognized him as a great incarnation, everyone accepted and believed. It is believed and accepted until today WITHOUT QUESTION. So if Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit, what about Lama Zopa? Do we want to go that direction I ask again ? If Dorje Shugden is evil, then why believe Lama Zopa is an incarnation? Since Dorje Shugden pronounced it first.
Many didn’t know that Lama Zopa was recognized by Dorje Shugden himself. He is and many of the younger FPMT students can verify that with the book written by the nun Jamyang Wangmo. Excellent book.
I would recommend highly getting this book which tells you everything:
THE LAWUDO LAMA
Written by Jamyang Wangmo-Vajra Publications. You can get at any major bookstore.
The incredible thing is that it is foreworded by H.H. The Dalai Lama!
Why would His Holiness endorse this book knowing that it was Dorje Shugden who confirmed Lama Zopa’s incarnation status. Isn’t the Dalai Lama inadvertently or indirectly endorsing the recognition made by Dorje Shugden by giving a foreword to this book which is the biography of Lama Zopa Rinpoche?
See Page 172-173 of this book. Also see page 376 (footnote 250,256) where it mentions clearly that Gyachen (short for Gyachen Dorje Shugden) took possession of the oracle that day and pronounced Lama Zopa to be a true incarnation. This Dungkar Monastery oracle was famous throughout Tibet to take trance of Gyachen Dorje Shugden, Tashi Ober, Kache Marpo and Namkar Barzin. Kache Marpo and Namkar Barzin both being Dorje Shugden’s main entourage.
In fact many of the great masters mentioned in this book took Dorje Shugden as their principle protector. Masters such as Serkong Dorje Chang, Geshe Rabten , Zong Rinpoche, Trijang Rinpoche, Trehor Kyorpon Rinpoche, etc etc. It seems many of the Lamas connected to Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa are great Practitioners of Dorje Shugden.
We of FPMT, especially the people who joined after Lama Yeshe’s passing should think of the future from a wide scope. Our founding father was a sound Dorje Shugden practitioner, and his legacy was passed to Lama Zopa who was invested as a Tulku by Dorje Shugden. Our lineage lamas all practiced Dorje Shugden as their principle protector. We must not criticize this protector in any way.
If he was so bad, or truly a spirit, do you think all the dharma protectors of Tibet cannot out beat him? Do you think the Dalai Lama cannot do some wrathful pujas and just subdue him as was done to Nechung (In Exile From The Land Of Snows-Wisdom Publications by John F. Avedon. Chapter: Wheel of Protection pgs 238-270). Could it be that and evil spirit can harm the Dalai Lama’s life, merits and activities? If he can be harmed, then what is the point we take refuge?
We must think deeper, harder and refrain from actions of body, speech and mind to get immediate benefit. We must think of our organization, the dharma, and our personal growth on a long term basis. Into our future lives.
I hope all that read this would understand better.
That is my hope to write. As I have not said anything for over twenty years.
Yeshe
This is really big news…is it for real…..where can i get more information on this court case??
DALAI LAMA SUMMONED TO COURT
COURT CASE AGAINST THE DALAI LAMA IS STILL IN ACTION IN NEW DELHI. SINCE THE INDIAN GOVT HAS ACCEPTED TO SEE THE CASE, IT DOES MEAN THAT THIS BAN ON DORJE SHUGDEN ON INDIAN SOIL IS ILLEGAL.
IF THERE WAS NO SUBSTANCE TO THIS FUNDAMENTAL DEMOCRATIC FREEDOM BEING INFRINGED ON INDIAN SOIL, THEN THE COURTS WOULD NEVER ALLOW IT TO PROCEED.
WHATEVER PEOPLE WANT TO SAY AGAINST THE SHUGDEN PEOPLE, THE FACTS ARE CLEAR. THE DALAI LAMA AND OR EXILE GOVT ARE GOING TO STAND TRIAL IN A COURT OF LAW IN THE LARGEST DEMOCRACY IN THE WORLD, INDIA.
HENCE WHATEVER PEOPLE WOULD LIKE TO SAY, IT WOULD NOT BE GOOD FOR THE DALAI LAMA OR HIS REPRESENTATIVE TO BE SUMMONED TO DELHI HIGH COURT IN HIS OWN HOST COUNTRY.
A NATION OF 1 BILLION DEMOCRATIC PEOPLE LIKE INDIA DEARLY TREASURE THEIR FUNDAMENTAL FREEDOM TO WORSHIP. ANY LEADER IN INDIA OR SO CALLED SPIRITUAL LEADER RESIDING IN INDIA MAY NOT BREAK THIS LAW.
Hi Nyima, this #170, sounds like dialogue. You accept that he is in the class of worldly protectors in this research. On the other hand Wojkowitz makes clear that this is the belief of “A tradition” (p. 134) and he makes also clear that the description of the entrance is based on the son of the Nechung oracle and that it is an “old tradition” which believes he would precede Pehar. This mustn’t be the opinion of anybody else especially not from all the other Tibetan Buddhist school who agree with Pehar but not with Shugden…
Where in his text Wijkowitz is stating “Dorje shugden is a emanation of Manjushri in worldly form to benefit those of low merits in kaliyuga.”? or is this just an annotation by you of your believes? If it is an annotation by you please mark this, I marked my annotations with this brackets [].
I understand that you believe that Shugden is a worldly emanation of Manjushri. Since according to the “old tradition” Shugden is waiting to enter the temple it follows for you: “That shows clearly the nature of Manjunatha Dorje Shugden.” others have other views on this.
When I asked HE Gangteng Tulku Rinpoche he was first amazed to hear that there are Gelugpas who see him as a Buddha, then he replied. “For me and most Nyingma, Kagyue, and Sakya Lamas he is a demon. If you practice it, you will get many disciples, many money and then many problems.” You see the views regarding this being, DS, are very diverse unlike ANY other protector. Moreover Nyingmapa and Sakya lamas have reported harm they received from this being and Kayguepas do not even mention his name.
I think it can not work to compare the Buddha with Shugden, the first is accepted by all Buddhists, the latter is highly controversial, famous for killing the own followers when they practice other Buddhist schools and is feared among Tibetans. Researcher Mumford: Shugden is “extremely popular, but held in awe and feared among Tibetans because he is highly punitive.” Mumford 1989: 125-126
Since what Buddhists fear a Buddha? They don’t, they take refuge in him, however Shugden is feared. H.E. Thai Situ Rinpoche:
“We Kagyue followers normally do not mention this name without fear. There is no Shugden practitioner among Kagyue followers.
we believe that he causes obstacles to spiritual practice and brings discord in families and among the community of monks.”
Dangerous practices can be banned there is nothing undemocratic in this. The problem may be how to judge all of this. To be a butcher is ok for non-Buddhists but what when a protector kills or makes the people mad he should protect just because they practice other Buddhist schools? If you ban this to protect others of harm, is this wrong or correct? There are a lot of questions and background to be considered.
To judge all of this one needs a complete and unbiased picture of the scenery. Hopefully the court is able to do this.
However it is incorrect to claim that HHDL would demonize Shugden, Shugden has been portrayed by his own followers as a demon who is now tamed (see Mumford) and also other portray him to be a demon, like HH Mindolling Trichen Rinpoche. There are enough reports of harm spiritual adepts received by Shugden (see e.g. Jackson who investigated this in the Sakya school) and I wonder what a court will make all out of this….
It is not correct that Shugdenpas can’t practice their practice, they can, but not in the monasteries, they can do it privately and they can set up their own monasteries and places.
BTW, HH the Dalai Lama was mainly pushed by Nyingmapas to issue this Shugden controversy, since they have suffered the most on this. You find this in Mills’ research. A government can not only work for the welfare of a exclusive Gelugpa minority who think they are supreme and established Shugden as a punitive, violent and sectarian deity. A government must balance the different interests and concerns.
Certainly not an easy task and probably faults have been made, according to Nyingmapa a main fault is that HHDL did not point out the demerits of Shudgen worship earlier…
It is true the world has changed and the most conservative Gelug wing has lost power and influence. One can see it that way or in another.
The Dalia Lama has told so many lies that people eat them like candy.
Whatever Americans thought they had in common with this former slave master is beyond considering. He is a walking talking theocratic dictatorial potentate that assumed his power base by killing a Wisdom Buddha and enlisted the Mongolian Cavarly to finsih by slaughtering the devoted to Dragpa Gyaltshen.
Dalia will soon die and China will prevail this schism by sheer force of numbers and most importany by sheer force of Trillion of dollars.
What a waste of time he turned out to be, just another Grifter ripping off wealthy and deceiving the youth.
Bob Thurman will anser for his crimes as a traitor to the Amercan Constituition and the Bill of Rights.
Next Septmeber the Dalia and Samdung will face the music from the New Delhi High Courts for violating the Indian Constitution and molesting others rights to Religious Freedom.
Disgusted with Tibetan Politics and the Dalia makes me want to puke all over his icon everytime I see one.
Dalia is Disgusting to Me!
“If Dorje Shugden is waiting to enter Nechung Temple, what does that tell you. How can an evil spirit enter the state oracle’s Temple?”
Young Tibetan people generally don’t buy these old superstitious fairy stories, its comical to hear new western converts so convinced in its supposed veracity. I’m more concerned with the people, already prostate and handcuffed mind you, brutally thrashed by Chinese fascist police than Brothers Grimm monster/ghosts/
Please see this footage:
http://media.phayul.com/?av_id=147&av_links_id=323
I could give a hoot about who said what in the 17th century.
correction:
I said:
“Hi Nyima, this #170, sounds like dialogue. You accept that he is in the class of worldly protectors in this research. On the other hand Wojkowitz makes clear that this is the belief of “A tradition” (p. 134)..”
I meant, Woijkowitz clearly shows him to be classified as a mundane protector not as an enlightened one - in this we agree;
and Wojkowitz makes clear that the belief that Shugden would precede Pehar, once the latter has attained full enlightenment, is a belief of “A tradition” (p. 134)
Such a belief of “a tradition” mustn’t be a general opinion or correct. Stephen Batchelor assumes that such a shift would have given supporters of Dorje Shugden more political influence. (Kay 2004 : 231) So now add one and one: Pehar is accepted by all four Tibetan Buddhist schools and properly bound by oath by Padmasambhava, Shugden is abused as a hostile mean against Nyingmapas* and for establishing Gelug supremacy. It is quite clear that “a tradition” refers to Shugden followers and that this view that he would precede Pehar is quite likely not at all accepted among the other schools.
* to give evidence for my claim:
“Pabongkha Rinpoche (a Gelug agent of the Tibetan government) and his disciples employed repressive measures against non-Gelug sects. Religious artefacts associated with Padmasambhava — who is revered as a ’second Buddha’ by Nyingma practitioners — were destroyed, and non-Gelug, and particularly Nyingma, monasteries were forcibly converted to the Gelug position. A key element of Pabongkha Rinpoche’s outlook was the cult of the protective deity Dorje Shugden, which he married to the idea of Gelug exclusivism and employed against other traditions as well as against those within the Gelug who had eclectic tendencies.”
(Kay 2004 : 43)
and Pabongkha himself:
“[This protector of the doctrine] is extremely important for holding Dzong-ka-ba’s tradition without mixing and corrupting [it] with confusions due to the great violence and the speed of the force of his actions, which fall like lightning to punish violently all those beings who have wronged the Yellow Hat Tradition, whether they are high or low. [This protector is also particularly significant with respect to the fact that] many from our own side, monks or lay people, high or low, are not content with Dzong-ka-ba’s tradition, which is like pure gold, [and] have mixed and corrupted [this tradition with ] the mistaken views and practices from other schools, which are tenet systems that are reputed to be incredibly profound and amazingly fast but are [in reality] mistakes among mistakes, faulty, dangerous and misleading paths. In regard to this situation, this protector of the doctrine, this witness, manifests his own form or a variety of unbearable manifestations of terrifying and frightening wrathful and fierce appearances. Due to that, a variety of events, some of them having happened or happening, some of which have been heard or seen, seem to have taken place: some people become unhinged and mad, some have a heart attack and suddenly die, some [see] through a variety of inauspicious signs [their] wealth, accumulated possessions and descendants disappear without leaving any trace, like a pond whose feeding river has ceased, whereas some [find it] difficult to achieve anything in successive lifetimes.”
quoted from Pabongkhapa’s works by Dreyfus : 1999, Journal of the International Association of Buddhist Studies (Vol., 21, no. 2 [1998]:227-270)
Finally Prof. G. Samuel
“The dominant Gelugpa figure of this period, apart from the 13th Dalai Lama himself, was his near contemporary, the 1st P’awongk’a Rimpoch’e (1878-1943). P’awongk’a Rimpoch’e was by all accounts a brilliant scholar and accomplished Tantric meditator, who is remembered with devotion by his disciples. He is remembered with less favor by the Nyingmapa order in K’am where, as the Dalai Lama’s representative, his attitude was one of sectarian intolerance towards non-Gelugpa orders and the Nyingmapa in particular.
[...]
P’awongk’a thus stood in a complex relationship to the 13th Dalai Lama, and in fact the two men where not personally close. The 13th Dalai Lama, like the Great 5th, was interested in the Nyingmapa and Dzogch’en traditions, and received teachings from Rimed lamas such as Terton Sogyal. His own orientation seems to have been open minded and eclectic, and was not identified with P’awongk’a’s conservative and traditionalist faction. Nonetheless, P’awongk’a was in some respects the logical expression in the religious sphere of the transformation that the 13th Dalai Lama was trying to bring about. Had the Lhasa government ever succeeded in turning Tibet into an effective cetralized state, the Gelugpa might have continued to move in this direction and might have gradually eliminated the other Tibetan religious traditions in favor of a well-controlled academic and clerical version.
In fact, P’awongk’a’s influence was strongest after his death and that of the 13th Dalai Lama, and particularly after the forced resignation of the regent Reting (Ratreng) Rimpoch’e in 1941 and his replacement by Tagtrag Rimpoch’e, who had been a close associate of P’awongk’a and shared his conservative orientation. It was at that time that P’awongk’a’s students gradually moved into the dominant position that they have held within the Gelugpa order into the 1970s and 1980s.”
Civilized Shamans p545-546
Thanks Gyalpo, back to the topic.
re: 176. “Thomas Canada”, fake poster, you can’t spell too good, not that smart are you, just nasty.
‘Thomas Canada’ poser–all that effort at deception blown, back to grammar school, junior.
TP,
As I mentioned, Dorje Shugden emanates as a worldly deity but that does not mean his MINDSTREAM IS WORLDY OR MUNDANE. It is simply his emanated mode. He is Manjushri emanated in worldly form. Why does he emanate in a worldly mode? Because due to the low merits of beings in the kaliyuga, it would be easier for them to benefit from his help due to close ‘proximity’. Dorje Shugden is the new protector, but that does not mean in time his stature will grow and become the leading protector within Samsara as predicted. Even if it is a ‘tradition’, the tradition has basis and hence will and can become mainstream.
Dorje Shugden may not be accepted by all four schools of Tibetan Buddhism and that is true. But that does not mean he will not grow in stature and practice. For example, before the Dalai lamas took on Pelden Hlamo as one their protective deities she was a entourage of the 6 armed Mahakala, not considered a ‘full’ protector in her own right. It was the great 2nd and 3rd Dalai lamas that popularized her practice in their lifetime. Prior to that, she was minor.
But there are many Protective deities not accepted or even known to all four schools of Tibetan Buddhism that are indegenious of their own sects. That does not make them less accepted or propitiated within their own sects. Or any less important.
Just because Dorje Shugden is not accepted by all at this time, DOES NOT MEAN HE IS NOT ENLIGHTENED OR WILL BECOME FULLY ACCEPTED IN THE FUTURE.
For example Hlamo Apchi is the main protectoress of the Drigung Kagyupa sect today. She is not worshipped or practiced out of that Kagyu subsect. When she first became a protectoress, she was not accepted and was considered unenlightened. But today she is practiced within her own sect.
Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche’s disciples did not forcibly change Nyingma Monasteries into Gelug. They are not the govt and they cannot order that to happen. They have no force or political power to do that. But there were monks of other sects who heard the power of Kyabje Pabongkha Rinpoche’s heart moving dharma discourses when they attended and they adopted the practices he gave. Hence they were accused of switching from Nyingmapa to Gelug practices. The rumours started from there. Apparently there were many monks that were very moved by his teachings and ‘converted’ to be his disciples.
It was the 5th Dalai Lama’s people who forcibly converted some monasteries from their respective sects to Gelug in order to consolidate power. There are books on that subject. Example the karma kargyus has a history of disliking the Dalai lamas. As the 5th Dalai Lama forcibly closed many of their monasteries, banned the karmapa where he was exiled to China (see Buddha’s Not Smiling by Erik D. Curren, pg48-55).
Also the Tibetan govt has banned the incarnation of Sharmapa and closed his estates. You can see in the same above book by Curren.
What is accepted by all four schools of Tibetan Buddhism is that Nechung Pehar is AN EVIL SPIRT that did everything he can to stop the coming of Buddhim to Tibet. He accumulated much heavy karma due to that, so he was bound to serve the dharma to purify his karma. Images of Nechung may NOT BE PLACED ON THE ALTER next to the enlightened beings as it will degenerate your practice.
THAT IS A FACT ACCEPTED BY ALL. So that tells you something about the actual nature of Nechung. The fact is that he is an evil spirit who is mischievous and only helps because he is bound by oath and if he breaks his oath, his head is said to crack. So he is helping out of fear.
None of the other schools of Buddhism or in Gelug hold him as a major or main protector of their schools of Buddhism. They do not have major shrines to him in their respective Prayer hall chapels. Even the protector of Sera Mey Monastic College is Tao. He closely resembles Dorje Shugden riding on a snow lion and wearing a round golden hat. Tao is not known to anyone, and relatively obscure, yet a major Gelug Centre of learning adopts him as their college’s protector.
Nechung does not exist in India and prior to the advent of Buddhism to Tibet he was unheard of. Like Dorje Shugden, Nechung has no lineage stemming from India. As time goes on, more and more and different emanations of enlightened beings will appear in various forms according to time, place and need.
The Dalai lama is making the practice of Dorje Shugden grow in leaps and bounds. He can easily do rituals to subdue Dorje Shugden, the fact he doesn’t and keeps speaking about Dorje Shugden over and over makes educated people think deeper and wonder what is really behind all this. I know a few people who came across this practice due to the controversies and bans. When they investigated further, they could make no sense, and in the process adopted Dorje Shugden as their protector whereas otherwise they would of never heard of him.
Chinese govt is introducing Dorje shugden in China and protecting his practices in Tibet. China is doing this to perhaps irk the Dalai lama and it seems to work. But after the Dalai lama, the irkings, and the controversies die down, Dorje Shugden will take root and be practiced by the most populace nation on this planet. Then with the future generations, Dorje Shugden’s practice will grow and spread further from China to other countries. The Dalai Lama is causing that to happen as predicted.
Dorje Shugden’s Gelug lineage has broken off into their own school of Buddhism and will become mainstream in the future. That is how all the Tibetan Schools of Buddhism and subsects began in Tibet’s Buddhist 1,000 year history. The many monks, tulkus and Geshes have formed a large Monastic Institution out of the reach of Dharamsala Govt in south India to worship in peace /freedom protected by the Indian Govt and registered.
They have broken away from the Tibetan Govt. This Monastery is called Shar Gaden Monastery and it has over 600 monks currently.
This week, the incarnation of Domo Geshe Rinpoche will fly from the US with his parents and entourage to enroll formally into this monastery and be a high lama incumbent of Shar Gaden. This current Domo Geshe Rinpoche was found and recognized by the current Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche. Domo Geshe’s previous incarnations were also found and enthroned by the previous Trijang Tulkus.
In Tibet, Kham District, you have many large monasteries such as Jampa Ling with 1,500 monks and elite masters. Jampa Ling’s main protector is Dorje Shugden. His practice is alive and well .
In Denma Gonsa Monastery in Kham also there are around 600 monks plus. Denma Gonas Monastery’s main protector is Dorje Shugden.
Also in the USA the oracle of Dorje Shugden, Kuten Tenzin Choepel has purchased 160 acres of land and building a large institution in which the main protector will be Dorje Shugden. Currently as I type, a large Dorje shugden Monastery is being built in Hualian, Taiwan. Also Taipei to have just named a few. There are many more.
It was in fact the 5th Dalai Lama that enthroned Dorje Shugden as a superior Dharma protector. He also built a shrine in honor of Dorje Shugden named Trode Khangsar that exists in Lhasa today and pilgrims visit from all parts of Tibet. The image of Dorje Shugden inside the shrine was commissioned by the 5th Dalai Lama. The image is around 5 ft and stunning. It is very famous in Lhasa. Trode Khangsar Shrine is protected and active with monks doing pujas to Dorje Shugden daily on behalf of pilgrims ( The Temples of Lhasa by Andre Alexander pg 195-200). Can see the pictures of this shrine in the book by Alexander.
Dorje Shugden’s practice will continue to grow and break off completely into its own sect and school of Buddhim. This has been predicted by Dorje Shugden when he took trance of his Oracle monk.
Nyima
Dear Gyalpo, In reference to your post below.
It is wonderful that you don’t believe in any of these old superstitions. But the Dalai Lama believes in these ’superstitions’.
The young tibetans are losing themselves within their respective host countries. When Dalai Lama passes away, you will have no one to listen to your ravings anymore.
Exactly, Dorje Shugden waiting to enter into Nechung Temple is symbology. Dorje Shugden is not an evil spirt. If it is fairy tales to you, then there is no evil or good dorje shugden. Why mention him at all????
========================================
——–177 Gyalpo - April 4, 2009
“If Dorje Shugden is waiting to enter Nechung Temple, what does that tell you. How can an evil spirit enter the state oracle’s Temple?”
Young Tibetan people generally don’t buy these old superstitious fairy stories, its comical to hear new western converts so convinced in its supposed veracity. I’m more concerned with the people, already prostate and handcuffed mind you, brutally thrashed by Chinese fascist police than Brothers Grimm monster/ghosts/
Please see this footage:
http://media.phayul.com/?av_id=147&av_links_id=323
I could give a hoot about who said what in the 17th century
AMAZING DEVELOPMENT
DALAI LAMA SUMMONED TO COURT
COURT CASE AGAINST THE DALAI LAMA IS STILL IN ACTION IN NEW DELHI. SINCE THE INDIAN GOVT HAS ACCEPTED TO SEE THE CASE, IT DOES MEAN THAT THIS BAN ON DORJE SHUGDEN ON INDIAN SOIL IS ILLEGAL.
IF THERE WAS NO SUBSTANCE TO THIS FUNDAMENTAL DEMOCRATIC FREEDOM BEING INFRINGED ON INDIAN SOIL, THEN THE COURTS WOULD NEVER ALLOW IT TO PROCEED.
WHATEVER PEOPLE WANT TO SAY AGAINST THE SHUGDEN PEOPLE, THE FACTS ARE CLEAR. THE DALAI LAMA AND OR EXILE GOVT ARE GOING TO STAND TRIAL IN A COURT OF LAW IN THE LARGEST DEMOCRACY IN THE WORLD, INDIA.
HENCE WHATEVER PEOPLE WOULD LIKE TO SAY, IT WOULD NOT BE GOOD FOR THE DALAI LAMA OR HIS REPRESENTATIVE TO BE SUMMONED TO DELHI HIGH COURT IN HIS OWN HOST COUNTRY.
A NATION OF 1 BILLION DEMOCRATIC PEOPLE LIKE INDIA DEARLY TREASURE THEIR FUNDAMENTAL FREEDOM TO WORSHIP. ANY LEADER IN INDIA OR SO CALLED SPIRITUAL LEADER RESIDING IN INDIA MAY NOT BREAK THIS LAW.
Nyima,
You write really well!!
Thanks for the interesting posts. It beats all the mud-slinging type posts that I don’t bother to read.
Paul
“This week, the incarnation of Domo Geshe Rinpoche will fly from the US with his parents and entourage to enroll formally into this monastery and be a high lama incumbent of Shar Gaden.”
That depends which candidate one accepts as genuine, perhaps the woman in minnesota or whatever is the right one. Gaden Podrang have already started training their candidate and it is guaranteed Shugden practice will not continue in this line Most Tibetans will not follow false tulkus like the Panchen Lama, China’s stooge.
I wouldnt want the old tibetan govt to spread fear and lies to the people of tibet and now the world again.
and all the trolls who pretend to be DS’s followers, its too obvious. People posting here should be wary to not feed the trolls.
I do not practice DS, nor side with him but I do not like all the accusations going against him. Even if he was unenlighetened, all the work he has done to protect the Dharma at least in the Gelug lineage would make him better than any of us to criticize or make fun of him.
the hate towards DS started when one of Dudjom Nyigma’s splinter monasteries began spreading damaging views about the Dharma. Dorje Shudgen impersonated their protector in trance and made the oracle swallow a double vajra. He told them to stop spreading it and to build a Lama Tsongkhapa statue to purify the damage they have done. Since then the Dudjom lineage has started their extensive smear campaign against DS, to th point of putting DS under dorje drollo and also having an image of DS being supressed by Guru Rinpoche in his scorpion form as their emblem. Then, they started to influence other schools into thinking that DS is out to get them by distorting the facts, that DS attacked their monastery etc and they would be next if they did not destroy him. this was very well documented in his prayers that can be found on dorjeshugden.com, i mean the part of the oracle. It isnt surprising that eventually the truth was contorted in order to make Gelug look bad for revenge.
spreading fear. and that is what the 1st comment in this post is all about. And as educated people we should see through all the lies, mindgames and political games that the tibetans have bought to us along with their religion and culture.
the “deaths” by high lamas “caused” by dorje shudgen may very well by warnings but DS was made as a scapegoat anyway. it was always gelug. I dont find DS dangerous unless I am hell bent on spreading superstitions, fear, and misunderstandings because I know he will get me hard, whether or not I practiced him. I am not saying that other lineages are not pure and Gelug is but Gelug represents the rest of the lineages and Dorje Shudgen will make sure that they will survive too whether or not they propitiate him.
the hate towards him today was spread due to fears and misunderstandings as well as hate and lack of knowledge. it will stop soon.
Dudjom Nyingma it seems? A new school you invented, a new scapegoat for you conspiracy theorists. Of course you know HH Dudjom Rinpoche was put in jail on trumped up charges by the Gelugpa chauvinist kabal? This obliged him to move to Nepal and abandon his house in Darjeeling. Buddhism started a downward spiral coinciding with the involvement and money of westerners. Sorry, Tricycle but that roughly is it. Big money from Singapore, HK, Taiwan, etc has not helped either.
Dorje Setrap: Tibet was lost due to Gelugpa conservatism and reactionary narrowmindness. One might say on the supernatural plain, the network of geomantic protectors established by Guru Rinpoche one thousand years before even the mythological genesis of DS, was neglected. Your sectarian take from afar is based on the sort of Gelugpa hegemonist folklore fed to gullible western neophytes that has made NKT such an obnoxious and politicized entity, a demon if you will. One that has been defeated and is just in a death howl. I never claimed to speak for the Tibetan Exile Government–that is entirely your imputation, however as a Rime person I respect the policy that has encouraged the presevation of the diverse schools, especially Bon, and even supprtfor the Tibetan Muslims, many of whom live in J&K, but theres a few families in Darjeeling and other towns. If you want to know the other side, read the Dalai Lama’s website, particularly his account of the Gelugpa conference, wherein he talks about his relationship with Khyabje Trijang Rinpoche. Otherwise you people are very much like those who were outraged by ‘The Satanic Verses’ without ever reading it….foolishness!
Ghostnet, a Chinese intelligence initiative is a reality, the presence of pro-PRC troublemakers here just reinforces the point that communist China is enjoying if not encouraging the division in the tiny exile community. Why did consular staff establish contact with the Shugden Society in Delhi? Even a student of the late Tomo Geshe Rinpoche remarked this situation is tailor made for the PRC to attack the Tibetans.
Dorje Setrap: “Dorje Shudgen will make sure that they will survive” I would characterize this theatrical ghost story as primitive idolatry and theism, You speak of “him” as if he were a guy on the street, yet you claim you do not practice DS, why, afraid of losing credibility? You fib and betray your own protector, good luck with your intellectual dishonesty problem.
I noticed no one has the moral courage to comment on the video,
http://media.phayul.com/?av_id=147&av_links_id=323
That video is faked! THEY ARE ACTORS ALL SLAVE OWNERS PRETENDING TO RECEIVE A THRASHING FROM THE CHINESE PEOPLE’S POLICE! ANYWAY THEY DESERVE IT
Bon and Tibetan Muslims are fine but Dorje Shugden practitioners need to be persecuted. Buddhism is being destroyed by such mistaken sectarian attitudes, not what the Gelugpas have done in the past.
Tibetan Politics and Religion are as water and oil. They have never mixed since Dalia Lama introduced Politics , when he murdered Dragpa Gyaltshen
Bill Esterhaus: By that I suppose you must mean mistaken sectarian attitudes as reflected in this WSS quote:
“Throughout your life you have pretended to be a Buddhist holy being giving Buddhist teachings that you have stolen from Trijang Rinpoche. By doing this, you have cheated people throughout the world. In summary, it is clear that your real nature is cruel and very evil.”
Or do you mean mistaken sectarian attitudes as reflected in this quote from the self styled ‘Dorje Setrap’ above:
“the hate towards DS started when one of Dudjom Nyigma’s splinter monasteries began spreading damaging views about the Dharma. Dorje Shudgen impersonated their protector in trance and made the oracle swallow a double vajra. He told them to stop spreading it and to build a Lama Tsongkhapa statue to purify the damage they have done. Since then the Dudjom lineage has started their extensive smear campaign against DS…etc, etc. blah, blah
Either way it seems the Shugden cultists are guilty of spreading sectarian hate propaganda. I’m still considering writing to Al Jazeera to inform them WSS uses the term Muslim as an insult….
Thomas Canada: So we should let the Communist Party of China select tulkus or ’soul boys’ as they say? Not!
There is no intention to insult Muslims. If the boy who became Tenzin Gyatso was the genuine reincarnation of the 13th Dalai Lama and had complete control over his rebirth, why would he choose to be born in the family of the completely different religion? That’s the point. It’s certainly very curious.
It would have been equally strange if the boy had been born into a Bonpo family, and it would not be an insult to Bonpos to have called him “the saffron-robed Bonpo” The WSS simply says that he was called “the saffron-robed Muslim”. It’s a statement of fact, not an insult, this is what people called him after he was ‘recognised’.
The whole point of the story is that it indicates that the boy who became Tenzin Gyatso might not be the genuine incarnation of the 13th Dalai Lama. This, combined with the story about how the Reting Rinpoche refused to allow the son of one of his rivals to be recognised but instead concocted bogus predictive ’signs’ that he had been reborn in Amdo casts doubt on the authenticity of this Dalai Lama. The Dalai Lama’s own sectarian attitudes and actions also casts doubt on his authenticity. There is no insult to muslims intended in the least.
Apparently Red, the Dalia Lineage setup a democratic voting process to decide who is Tibet’s Idol_God_King,until this 14th emmantion decided that he could pre-select his own future host before he even passes alone.Dalia decides who is whom. That’s a new process that was not in the works until now.
The Chinese have done more for the actual Tibetan People than the Dalia never even imagined was possible. The simple act of sharing. It is well known what tyoe of theocratic rule emmanated from this Medieval Kingdom. It in the Beijing Museum and will soon be on tour for all people to see and judge for themselves what was going on inside of Tibet for over 350 years.
The population of Tibet was 2.3 million in 1737 and was only 2.1 in 1949. The average life expectancy for was 36 in 1959 and now is 67 years in Samsara.
95% of Tibetans lived no better than chattlel considered ‘Speaking Tools’, these Serfs and Slaves lived in servitude to the elite of the aristocrats and Monastaries in a swing door that never allowed them any of the Freedoms we enjoy in the United States.
Our Founding Fathers set the stage for not only the liberation of the African American in our Civil War that sanctified the belief that all peoples everywhere should be free and that culminated with the Chinese Liberation of the afore-mentioned 95% of the Tibetans suffering as serfs to a mean spirited Potentate. We now call Serf Liberation Day, to celebrate and acknowledge this fact of history. Like it or not!
The Dalia became a Servant to the CIA after he ran away from his People. Is is the Servant that takes the money. It is recorded that he enjoyed an annual payment of $180,000.00 per year until 1972.
For this service, he and his family memebers worked the CIA & KGH during the height of the Cold War. It was this Dalia Lama that sent the Tibetan Guerilla to harass the Chinese to secure his payment for the ceratin death of tens of thousand of Tibetans dying for, what exactly?
The Chinese have opened the door to share and discuss religion and the Chinese who follow one path or another as they believe. Not the Government’s beliefs.
Freedom of Religious Beliefs is a cornerstone within the American and Chinese People’s Constitutions.
This Dalia Lama along with Samdung Rinpoche are awaiting the verdict from the New Delhi High Courts, this next September for charges that DL & Samdung have violated the Indian Constitution provisions that ensure and protect the rights of indiviuals to have and excercise their own beliefs about religion.
It was afterall the Voice Of America that the this Dalai Lama directed the announcemet that the Panchen Lama incarnation had been found and lived at Numer 3 Lhasa, Tibet. The authorities picked the child up within hours. This Panchen Lama could have easily been smuggled out of China-Tibet to India.
Then Dalia has the gall to call the Panchen Lama the World’s Youngest Political Prisioner?
It is Dalia that is a Nation Divider. We all have more important issue to concern ourselves with other than listening to a know Serf-Slave Owner, he only had 6,000 serfs at his homestead in 1949,
and call out his old CIA rhetoric against our New Global Partner,China.
Drop the Cold War rheotoric and move into the New World.
Notice how Dalia dropped out of the news since the G-20 ? That President Obama, the first African American Black President will soon visit the museum dedicated to the suffering of Tibetan Peasants. It’s all in there, the tools of slavery. Just like our ancestors butchered in ignorance, so did these Tibetan Arsitocrats.
The French People as we American threw off the yokes of ignorance, slavery and depostism centuries ago. This so-called Buddha of Compassion didn;t get the message until he go hip and the CIA cut him off in 1972. Then he figured out his story to cover his past and as had no end of support from the CIA to promote this Icon of Freedom? Why not give it Jefferson Davis. President of the CSA during our Civil War, in which over 600.000 American lives were lost to clarfy the Founding Father’s decree, ‘that all Men are created equal’.
Yes! the Chinese will decide the fate of Mahayanna Buddhism and so will 6.2 million Tibetans actually living inside of China_Tibet, not the 120,000 or so disenfranchised or aristocratic Tibetans living outside of China, will decide who is what and that includes the next Dalia Lama.
We have our Little Cuba sitting it out in Florida. Maybe this group should head for Alaska, whilst they have the world fooled and still have some support from the governments. The same ones that are borrowing Trillions of Dollars from China. South Africa, France….
The People’s Republic of China & the United States Of America are partners and the People are friends.
So, yes actual nations are better than little serf-slave owners
I do not trust this Dalia Lama anymore! One mistake is enough
If anyone sees Bob Thurman, remind him that I challenged him to Public Televised Debate on the schism issue. Loser concedes all. Winner take all?
What do you say Bob, can you handle that?
Dear Tp,
As I mentioned the other day, no High Gelug lama would ever forcibly convert Nyingma to Gelug. Actually there is no conversion. Nyingma and Gelug are both Buddhists.
Do read the post below. I sincerely hope it helps your understanding.
========================================
Is there any religion without being accompanied by any sort of controversies in history of human kind. Name it, Christianity, Islam, Hindu and even Buddhism, all are directly or indirectly linked to one or another controversy, even much bigger than shugden controversy. Your story about the persecution of non-gelugpa Buddhists in eastern Tibet by shugden worshippers is not a valid reason because how can you be sure about that it is true. It is just based on Nyingma lamas or jamyang khentse’s saying? Most of the Tibetan high lama lives comfortably in their well protected house that they are seldom correct in real happening among general people. Whatever their attendant told then, they simply believe. It seems that their clairvoyance doesn’t work in these things( i believe because of our karma). Anyway high lamas saying about these happenings are not reliable. Anyway i heard different version of your story from somebody from chamdo region( eastern tibet) about what really happened at that time. It is nothing to do with Togden rinpoche or shugden but i will not go in detail here. Even if your story had been true, we should differentiate between those who misuse religion and the religion itself. Whatever so called shugden followers does in the name of shugden cannot be attributable to shugden or his main philosophy. Here i am defending shugden and his philosophy.
I tell you one real story witnessed by my friends many years ago. HH Zong Rinpoche was invited to Orrisa( south India) to do a special ritual. At that time in Orrisa, Tibetan camp, many people were dying without any obvious reasons; as a result, many lamas and specially those from nyingma did rituals to ward off negative energy, but none of them was sucessful and then Zong rimnpoche was invited as he was very famous as powerful tantric master. Zong rinpoche’s ritual was very effective and showed many signs described in text. During that time Zong also gave some small teachings and empowerment. He even visited Nyingma monastery of great Dranag rinpoche(highly realised master), where he gave teaching on Guru padmasambawa’s life story, so moving and inspiring that even nyingma lama Dranag commented that ” even we nyingmapa weren’t aware of such”. This great dranag rinpoche later offered his younger son to HH zong rinpoche as disciple. This young son studied under zong and now he is geshe lharampa. This clearly shows that how authentic lama from gelug side and nyingma side can keep such a healthy relationship? But then what had happened thereafter, few nyingma persons out of jealousy started to spread a rumor that zong was against nyingma ,destroying Guru padmasambhawa’s staues and nyingma text and started to collect signature from nyingma followers to condemn zong. They hurled same accusation like in your story to my most precious, ever compassionate and truthful lama, zong rinpoche. I saw from my own eyes that zong rinpoche kept statue of guru rinpoche in his personal altar. As their approach one old lady for signature, she was said to have told them that Zong rinpoche had instead advised her to recite mantra of guru rinpoche and pray to him, hence cannot sign. Then these fanatics send petition signed by several people to Exile Tibetan government. Government sent one envoy( then member of parliament) named kunsang choemphel to investigate the matters. Kunsang chomphel and then local representative( like mayor) Lobsang nyima did thorough investigation. Their investigation found HH zong rinpoche with no faults and all accusation were baseless and unfounded. They gave zong clean chit. When these two men asked those people who signed the petition about their reason, most of them told that we just signed it because we were told to do so, that is the only reasons. Infact main culprit were one low profile nyingma lama, others were just ignorant and following him blindly.This happening is ,unlike your story, well documented proved by government appointed reliable third party. Despite the investigation, after many years( zong passed away in 1984) in 2002, Dalai lama just repeated what had been proved to be wrong by his own goverment several years ago, may be his memory is poor.
Phagphongka and Trijang did highly praised and with reasoning established the fact that Lama tsongkhapa’s interpretation of buddha’s both sutra and tantra are perfect, immaculate devoid of even a subtle mistakes. Then they further emphasized that tsongkhapa’s tradition should be upheld purely without mixing with others. What wrong in this? If this amount to sectarianism, then i think all religion are sectarian because very religion says that their way is the best and prefer to not to mix. Religion is supposed to be the way to ultimate goal and who wouldn’t chose the best for him or her when it is about way to ultimate goal.
In christian, jesus is the only way to salvation. According to madhayamika, chittamatrin(mind only) school’s way cannot even lead to liberation much less buddha hood. Is madhayamika a sectarian? I never read and heard any such things from Phagpongka, trijang and zong that we shouldn’t respect nyingma or kagyu and say bad things about them. In fact my most immaculate teacher zong rinpoche repeatedly told us to respect and generate pure vision with respect to nyingma teaching and their teachers but he remind us that this doesn’t mean that one should practice other tradition. We, Buddhist respect Christianity but doesn’t practice Christianity. We rae not politician or playing games with religions, if one is really serious in practicing dharma in order to get buddha hood then, practice one of the four traditions whichever you like, not all by mixing. Because mixing has greater long term harm then benefits.
Every great religion advocates the practice of their tradition purely.
Extracted from a post from mohani.
see below link under forum section:
http://tinyurl.com/dkw4dv
Mr. Canada: Yes we are familiar with the 40 acres and a mule promise. You draping yourself in old glory does not impress me, but then, I’m not American
Thomas David Canada, I gather you have visited or planned to visit China but how much in-depth research have you done on civil rights there? Its hard to tell because none of your points are referenced– which is fine this is obviously not a scholarly forum but I suggest it limits their value of your critique for those with curious minds. As a start, the article “Freedom of religion in China from the U.S. Department of State” which gives one perspective of the situation of religious rights in China, not really as rosy as you depict.
http://www.asianresearch.org/articles/1933.html
Hey Namkhah,
Any incarnation found by H.H. Kyabje Trijang Choktrul Rinpoche is alright by anyone! All of Domo Geshe’s previous incarnations were found by the Trijang line of tulkus, not the Tibetan Govt. Read Domo’s bio. So of course that would be the case in this life.
Domo Geshe’s monasteries/temples in Kalimpong and Darjeeling all accept the Trijang choice. The committe/students of Domo’s vast Centre in New York State, USA also accept the Trijang choice of Domo Geshe Rinpoche! Everyone accepts except Tibetan Govt. But that is just for a few years. Tibetan exile govt’s time is near the end. All the ministers are hot tracking their way to US. They are buying their visas in Delhi. Lining up for it and that is a fact! They are scared and running, because when Dalai Lama passes away, the Tibetans in India are basically in precarious and dangerous situation. Watch.
The one found by Tibetan govt will grow up after the Dalai lama has passed away. By the time he grows up, the Shugden controversies are over and Shugden has grown big all over the world.
Hence the Trijang found Domo Geshe incarnation will prove who he is.
Due to the Dalai Lama, Shar Gaden Monastery has formed and it will grow bigger. More and more monks, tulkus and Geshes are joining by the month. They cannot be touched by the Tibetan govt as they chose to opt out of Tibetan Administration in Dharamsala. They are protected by the Indian Govt.
600 monks and growing now. Do a search. Pics are available of Shar Gaden. Anyway, the Tibetan Administration will be active ONLY WHEN THE DALAI LAMA IS ALIVE. And that is not for too much longer.
Huge Dorje Shugden temple are being built in Taiwan now as we type.
The ones in kham district like Jampa ling (1,500 monks), Denma Gonsa Monastery (600 monks), Chatreng Trijang Temple, Litang, etc etc are flourishing. Many more monasteries in kham province too numerous to mention.
There are three official active Dorje Shugden Oracles (kuten) in Lhasa that take wonderful trance of King Dorje Shugden with many lay and monks consulting.
There are oracles in the US and Taiwan.
The US oracle has purchased 160 acres of prime land and getting ready to build the Dorje Shugden based Monastery this year….it goes on and on.
Dorje Shugden’s practice is flourishing.
Let’s not forget the 1,200 centres/chapters around the world under Geshe kelsang which are flourishing and growing. Did you know Geshe kelsang is building a huge Dorje Shugden Peace temple in Singapore??
As regards to the fake panchen lama. It was Nechung who told Dalai lama, “Announce Panchen Lama’s incarnation, no danger! Announce!” And the Dalai Lama did announce! After that, he went under house arrest. Haven’t been seen since.
CONCLUSIONS TO WHY THE INCARNATION WAS ANNOUNCED WHILE IN TIBET:
1. nechung made mistake and opened his mouth to where the incarnation was.
2. nechung did it on purpose.
3. Dalai lama made a mistake to believe Nechung.
4. Dalai lama did it on purpose to get rid of Panchen Lama.
Well, whatever the case, why would Dalai Lama and Nechung not totally safeguard this incarnation of Panchen lama? The Second highest hope of the Tibetan Nation and for Buddhism??
Even the 14th Dalai lama’s incarnation was first kept secret protecting him from a Muslim Warlord in that area that might have asked for high ransom if he knew that the Dalai Lama incarnated in his district.
Panchen lama’s sacred incarnation should have been safeguarded by Dalai lama and Nechung. What happened? Another blunder kept quiet and swept under or diverted.
Above is reply to namkhah’s post as pasted below.
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post 186 namkhah - April 4, 2009
“This week, the incarnation of Domo Geshe Rinpoche will fly from the US with his parents and entourage to enroll formally into this monastery and be a high lama incumbent of Shar Gaden.”
That depends which candidate one accepts as genuine, perhaps the woman in minnesota or whatever is the right one. Gaden Podrang have already started training their candidate and it is guaranteed Shugden practice will not continue in this line Most Tibetans will not follow false tulkus like the Panchen Lama, China’s stooge.
Mr. Red, I am not responsible for your ignorance of Our Founding Fathers. Here, all of us are as Kings and Queens. That is the purpose of our democracy, equality before the law.
Mr. Red, would you be more impressed if I told you that I gave 110 acres to this Old Serf-Slave Master? No mules, but a tractor to build the Tibetan Cultural Center in 1979. Does that impress you? It does not impress me, only regret for a rash act that was not properly researched beforehand. Had I only known then, what I know now.
I’ll drape myself in the Democratic Ideals and Principles that allowed me to gift land to a Buddhist in the middle of the Bible Belt without being lynched.
That was before he betrayed the Principles of Democracy and the Precepts of Buddhism by molesting only One of the 1,0000 Dieties that fill the pathenon of Tibetan Mahayanna Buddhism. The only one that he dedicated and the only one that ties him to a 350 year old Murder Case of a Living Wisdom Budha, Dragpa Gyaltshen.
It is called the Law!
The law protects us the darkness of lawlessness and dictatorial potentate
Ruby Ridge, Waco,Texas, Chicago 1968 , Selma, Alabama, Martin Luther King, Robert Kennedy and so on and so on.
Civil Rights in China are on the way up and in the USA.
No country can cast stone that has not violated others rights. Is there?
Take the politics out of Tibetan Buddhism and give me a ring
Dear Thomas David Canada!!
It is amazing that you donated 110 acres of land to Dalai lama!! And to build a Tibetan Cultural Centre at that!!
You indeed have been very generous to the Dalai Lama. As far as I read, 1979 was a major visit of the Dalai Lama to the US.
Well I would recommend that you visit Shar Gaden Monastery in Mundgod, South India. Right next to Gaden Monastery and nearby Drepung Monastery.
They are growing and they are preparing for their grand official opening towards the end of this year. I hope you can make it. They are making beautiful life size statues of the great lineage lamas like Pabonkha Dechen Nyingpo, Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche, Kyabje Zong Rinpoche, etc etc ..
Yes, Tulku Drakpa Gyeltsen is alive and well. He has many emanations of which one is the Glorious Dorje Shugden, World Peace Protector.
All these controversies and problems were already predicted by Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang, root tutor to 14th Dalai lama in the late 70’s. The controversies will pass and Dorje Shugden will grow to become mainstream. All the obstacles are a clear indication that something big is going to happen. Something positive. Dorje Shugden will increase in popularity. It is a given. All the signs are there.
SAMDHONG RINPOCHE (PRIME MINISTER OF TIBETAN GOVT IN EXILE) HAS BEEN ONE OF THE PPL CHOSEN TO REPRESENT THE DALAI LAMA IN COURT RE HIS HEARING ON THE UNCONSTITUTIONAL BAN ON THE RELGIOUS WORSHIP OF DORJE SHUGDEN.
IT IS UNHEARD OF ON INDIAN SOIL THAT ANYONE CAN BAN ANY TYPE OF RELIGIOUS WORSHIP. IT OUTRAGES THE INDIAN PSYCHE AS THEY DO THEIR BEST TO KEEP HARMONY WITHIN THE MULTITUDES OF RELIGIONS AND THEIR SUBSECTS AT COMMUNAL PEACE.
INDIAN LAWYERS OF THE DELHI HIGH COURT DEMAND DALAI LAMA HIMSELF TO ATTEND THE HEARING.
ANOTHER DATE HAS BEEN CHOSEN AS THE PRELIMINARY HEARINGS ARE COMPLETE.
THE DELAY IS DALAI LAMA DOESNT WANT TO GO TO COURT, BUT THE LAWYERS INSIST. HENCE A RE-SCHEDULED HEARING.
WHATEVER THE OUTCOME, IT WILL NOT BE IN DALAI LAMA’S BEST INTEREST TO BE TRIED IN COURT. THE FIRST DALAI LAMA EVER TO BE TRIED IN COURT. THAT WILL EMBARASS THE TIBETANS TO NO END AND HIS SUPPORTERS.
TO ADD SALT TO THE INJURY, DALAI LAMA IS GOING TO COURT IN HIS HOST COUNTRY THAT HAS TAKEN CARE OF HIM AND TIBETANS FOR OVER 50 YEARS.
INDIAN AUTHORITIES DID NOT WANT THIS BAN TO REACH SUCH A EXTREME SITUATION, BUT BECAUSE THE DALAI LAMA WOULD NOT BACK DOWN ON HIS ILLEGAL BAN, COURT IT MUST BE.
THE TRIAL WILL BE IN DELHI HIGH COURT THIS YEAR.
LIFT THE ILLEGAL BAN. NO SUCH BAN WILL BE TOLERATED IN DEMOCRATIC INDIA. NO BAN, NO COURT.
DALAI LAMA SHOULD SHOW GRATITUDE TO HIS HOST COUNTRY BY LIFTING THE BAN.
IT IS OFFENSIVE TO HAVE SUCH A BAN IN THE LARGEST DEMOCRACY IN THE WORLD WHERE RELIGIOUS FREEDOM IS SO MUCH CHERISHED BY IT’S PLURALISTIC AND MULTI-RELIGIONED PEOPLE.
Jefferson, I read, was considered a kindly man who only beat his slaves occasionally, but then i digress from the digression.
mazel tov, and shalom people, this place is too wacky for me…oracles indeed
It was Kyabje Dagom Rinpoche who asked that we help the monks in India on a warm autumn day, by bringing over the Monks to help me build their monastery dedicated to the preservation of the Geden Traditon and Protected forever by “The Supreme Dharma Protector’ Shri Dorje Shugden.
We built the monastery in six months and the Dalia came all the way to a backwater town to perform the Kalchakra and try to destroy the Monastery dedicated to Doje Shugden.
This Monastery flourishes today and has expanded 20 times it size in only 10 years to spread the Dharma to three adjoining states with their own centers to receive the monks and their teachings of Lord Buddha.
I know this nightmare will one day be over and the knowledge of the Protector will fill many, many heats with bliss and joy.
Please invite me to the Big Pow Wow.
Maybe Bob Thurman would like to visit and see how mistaken he was to call us Taliaban.
Oh yes! It’s only karma that old Bob Thurman, is now the Director of the Tibetan Cultural Center. He was appointed by Dalia after the Monroe County Courts in Indiana banned the Dalia’s sister-in-law and her sons from ever stepping foot on the TCC grounds. Because they stole millions of dollars of the proceeds from the 1999 Kalachakra. That was dragging 12,000 people to a hard to reach loaction. Why would he not have held it in Chicago or Cincinnatti? Where it is easy to connect to transportation.
It’s all it the court records for reference and they got off lucky.
Birds of a feather, flock together. Princess Kuaniang Norbu is a prime example of the behavior of Tibetan Aristocrats believing that whatever it is? It is their!
Village Voice:”Bickering Buddhist”/August_1999/Tricycle_1999,0?.
I was trying to be polite back in 1999 the month or so before the Dalia Lama brought the Kalachaka Ruse to Bloomington to destroy the Dorje Shugden Monastery. I did not say then out of politeness that the 5th Dalia Lama came to power by treachery and murder. Now, that the pain has subsided with this realization, the words come easily to state what it is that this Dalia fears to be known, as I said.
He could have recanted and I would have loved him all the same for his integrity and honesty. Instead, he slanders and mocks the very foundation of our democracy to sustain his lies and deceits. He betrays the young with misrepsentations of his true nature and role as a former owner of slaves and serfs.
The 5th recanted after he murdered or had murdered by his Ministers for the slaying of Dragpa Gyaltshen to claim Tibet as his only and forever as a reincarnate War Lord that was crowned Dalia Lama by the Mongolian Cavalry after they finished slaughtering any of his rivals. Flowers falling from the Walls! Best described the ensueing slaughter by throwing the Flowered Robed Wives and Children off the walls to the valley below.
So many tragedies from Samsara. Who’s Hell On Earth was Dalia referring ? The approximate 18-20 million serfs and slaves that suffered and died in servitude over the 350 years the Dalia Lama lineage ruled with an Iron Fist over 95% of the People.
Maybe?
“Dorje Shugden practice” puts Tibetan democracy to test
Over the course of a decade, the Dalai Lama has repeated that worshipping the evil spirit “Dholgyal” harms the Tibetan cause and is detrimental to his lifespan. As a consequence, many who have engaged in this practice seem to have stopped it. For which Tibetan wants to harm the cause and the Dalai Lama? Only a madman or a traitor.
But then over time, a small group of supporters of this evil spirit emerged. Funny enough, their notion was that this evil spirit was actually an enlightened being, a Buddha or something to that effect. For them, it was not “Dholgyal”, which seems to be derogatory term, but “Dorje Shugden” or “Choekyong”. Eeach side has produced tons of materials over the years to strengthen their argument in this spiritual battle. The internet is full of it.
As long as the conflict over Dholgyal/Shugden remained in the religious realm, we could argue it was about personal spiritual experience and beliefs, and as external observers, we prefer to keep out because we could not follow, and the practice or non-practice had absolutely no meaning to us. At least I ignored the topic for the longest time, thinking it’s an archaic religious debate with no relevance to real life.
But then I realised that the political dimension of this conflict concerns all of us, because what had started as a theological dispute, had left the religious realm and had entered the Tibetan mainstream.
So while most of us were not qualified to make a statement with regard to the nature of Dholgyal/Shugden, as people living in a democratic society, we are all entitled to make a statement with regard to the political aspect of the controversy and how Tibetan society has been dealing with Dholgyal/Shugden supporters.
There are several instances where it would seem, Tibetan government agencies have been used to discourage the practice. It is known that the Prime Minister publicly discouraged the practice in several instances. In Switzerland, the assembly of elected Tibetan people’s deputies (thunmi) passed a “Dholgyal resolution” which, in effect, calls for singling out pro Dholgyal/Shugden Tibetans living in Switzerland.
In some instances, Tibetans in Switzerland and India have been asked to sign or take an oath that they would abandon the practice. Reportedly, Dholgyal/Shugden supporters in India have been refused necessary documents by the Tibetan government-in-exile, which they would need to obtain formal recognition as refugees by the Government of India. In some Tibetan settlements in South India, shops apparently no longer sell to Dholgyal/Shugden supporters, and entire groups of dissenting monks have been asked to leave their monastery.
If only a fraction of these stories are true, and the evidence would suggest so, they document a type of political pressure that is not normal. In fact, these reports are highly disturbing for our young democracy. In a democratic setting, it would not be possible to single out a group of people, label them and pressure them into compliance with the majority view. It’s actually a fascist thing to do and conjures up the darkest memories.
If we consider our society democratic, the question is: Why do some of us tolerate or even support this type of pressure on a minority?
We all know that in a democratic society, the rights of minorities do not depend on the goodwill of the majority. In a democratic society, the rights of minorities cannot be “overruled” by majority vote. The law is supreme and protects the rights of all citizens. We should know that a truly democratic Tibetan society would not force those with deviating views into obedience. A truly democratic Tibetan society would be strong enough to put up with dissenting views even though the majority may not approve of them.
Our problem boils down to the peculiarity of the Tibetan system. If the Dholgyal/Shugden dispute shows us something, then it is the incompatibility of democracy with our actual political behaviour, which, I believe, still reflects the traditional “religion-and-politics-entwined” mentality in both ruler and ruled.
Everyone knows that in the traditional system, the Dalai Lamas have held a double function: On the one hand, they have been top-ranking priests of the Gelug order, and on the other hand, they have functioned as the head of the Tibetan government. We also know that in a democracy, the secular and religious spheres are strictly separated and not ruled by one person for there is the danger of the abuse of power. All democracies in the world have a balance of power to prevent too much power in the hand of a single person.
In the current Dholgyal/Shugden dispute, it would seem the Dalai Lama has been using his political power as the head of the government to promote a religious goal, the clean-up of the Gelug order. This is very problematic, in fact, in a democracy, using political authority for a religious purpose constitutes an abuse of power.
The next question then is: Why is nobody raising any red flags?
Tibetan social behaviour in this dispute would confirm that in a system, where the leader is held in God-like esteem, it is difficult for the average citizen to hold diverging views. In such a system, there is little space for egalitarian discourse or democratic debate, because one participant is, by definition, infallible and beyond scrutiny.
Many Tibetans seem to save the intellectual effort because they believe the Dalai Lama is an enlightened being, and the rest of us are not. Due to his divine background and omniscient capability, many seem to believe he knows by default what’s best.
Many may also support his views out of gratitude. After all, the Dalai Lama does have an impressive track record of what he has done for his country and his people. We all love him for that. The whole world loves him. So many Tibetans are deeply grateful and give him unconditional loyalty in return.
For these reasons, many Tibetans are inclined to take an automatic stand in favour of the Dalai Lama even if they may not have a religious stake in the Dholgyal/Shugden issue per se.
But in a democracy, the leader or government is only one element of the social fabric made up of political parties, organisations, institutions etc. A true democracy is diverse and pluralistic, and everyone is entitled to their opinion. The spiritual experience of a Dalai Lama is no more true than the spiritual experience of the average Tibetan is false. If they end up with diverging views, it is wrong for the Dalai Lama to pressure others into accepting his view. Even if his spiritual insight is considered superior, the others have the democratic right to believe in their view.
The few, who have arrived at diverging views regarding Dholgyal/Shugden, and somehow manage to adhere to them, have been virtually shut out of society. They are not welcome at Tibetan gatherings and the Dalai Lama has regularly asked them to leave the venue when they attended his teachings.
People seem to have no problem with this style, because the majority seems to be stuck in the traditional “religion-and-politics-combined” mentality: How dare they be smarter than the Buddha? How dare they defy the leader without whom we would have been finished long ago? How dare they ignore the advice of someone who has nothing but genuine compassion at his heart? How dare they?
The reaction has been to ostracise and slander this minority as non-patriotic, pro-Chinese, murderers, greedy for money, and members of a cult rather than real Buddhists.
But when we take a closer look, we realise that it is a diverse group of people who practice Dholgyal/Shugden. They are not a monolithic block with the goal to damage the Dalai Lama’s reputation, help China or corrupt Buddhism.
The most controversial Dhogyal/Shugden supporters seem to be the New Kadampa Tradition (NKT) and the Western Shugden Society. Since these groups are mainly made up of Westerners, they are not under the sphere of influence of Tibetan society and as such have been the most vocal in protesting against the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan government-in-exile. Their protest for religious freedom is likely to continue since they cannot be directly pressured by Tibetan society.
The Tibetan side of Dholgyal/Shugden practitioners seems less organized and also avoids direct confrontation with the Dalai Lama. There is an organisation called “Dorje Shugden Devotee’s Charitable & Religious Society” based in New Delhi, but how numerous they are and how far they are prepared to go to safeguard their religious freedom is not clear.
Some Dholgyal/Shugden supporters voiced their grief on Swiss TV several years ago, some are said to have gone to Indian courts and others approached Amnesty International for support. But my impression is, most Tibetan Dholgyal/Shugden supporters keep a low profile. In general those defiant Lamas, Geshes, and lay people are without any affiliation to an organization. They tend not to voice their dissent in public for fear of being exposed.
I personally know of several people who stick to Dholgyal/Shugden as part of their spiritual practice. I have no idea what that practice looks like and I’m not the least interested. All I can say is that they are neither pro-Chinese, nor greedy for money, nor do they approve of violence to resolve a dispute. They do not believe in Gelug supremacy to the point where they belittle other Buddhist schools. I have never heard a bad word from them about Kundun. They seem sad but not bitter. They do not understand why the Dalai Lama wants to exterminate this practice. But unlike the Western Dholgyal/Shugden supporters, they have kept their grief to themselves hoping that if they keep quite and do not retaliate, the storm will pass.
It would be foolish to follow that all other Dholgyal/Shugden supporters have some sort of affinity with China just because a few are considered Chinese spies. And if some have murdered, it is silly to believe, everyone worshipping Dholgyal/Shugden is violent. If some pray to Dholgyal/Shugden to become rich, it doesn’t mean that everyone worshipping Dholgyal/Shugden only thinks about money. And if some people who worship Dholgyal/Shugden believe in Gelug supremacy, it doesn’t make everyone worshipping Dholgyal/Shugden a Gelug chauvinist.
We must be careful not succumb to the habit of labeling dissenters. We should make the effort to look behind the label to the content and differentiate, otherwise the witch hunt will continue.
If Tibetan society were truly democratic, cooperation would be based on free will, and people would be encouraged to think for themselves, making up their own minds. If Tibetan society were truly democratic, people who do not follow the opinion leader, would not be ostracised.
The way Tibetans have been handling the Dholgyal/Shugden issue says quite a bit about the state of our democratic values. We Tibetans are okay with dissenters being forced into obedience. We see nothing wrong with this political style. We have no issues with the Dalai Lama exerting pressure on dissenters by using secular government organs and tolerating oaths and signature actions in his name. Some even believe it is their duty to expose Dholgyal/Shugden supporters and slander them.
Until recently I thought, the more we talk about this conflict, the worse it becomes. I have changed my mind. I know now that it is wrong to remain silent. All genuine Tibetan democrats must speak up in the political debate over Dholgyal/Shugden. When a few are forced to take on the view of many, we’re going down a dangerous path. It is our duty to speak up. Our young democracy will remain in bad shape if we let this happen without a reaction.
Mountain Phoenix
Investigating the campaign against Dorje Shugden
Are the Dalai Lama’s methods unethical?
Mixing Religion and Politics: The Dalai Lama’s ban on Dorje Shugden Prayer
The fact that the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan Government in Exile have been able to subject the Tibetan populace to an oath swearing campaign, whereby they promise not to engage in prayer to Dorje Shugden or have dealings with anyone who does, harkens back to the religious persecution in England during the 17th century whereby religious uniformity was mandated by the state.
That this oath swearing campaign initiated by the Dalai Lama has bypassed our conscience and our concept of religious freedom as an unalienable human right is a sign of a deeper crisis that has emerged in the Tibetan and Buddhist Community.
It is a crisis that has arisen in part because the Dalai Lama is appealing to something quite unrelated to reason.
In video footage aired by Al Jazeera on Sept 30th the Dalai Lama says:
“I used to worship Shugden. The spirit was very fond of me. However, I realised it was a mistake. So I stopped. Recently monasteries have fearlessly expelled Shugden monks where needed. I fully support their actions. I praise them. If monasteries find taking action hard, tell them the Dalai Lama is responsible for this. Shugden followers have resorted to killing and beating people. They start fires. And tell endless lies. This is how the Shugden behave. It is no good.” Click here to view source footage.
In the same video Samdong Rinpoche the Prime Minister of the Tibetan Government in Exile says:
“A lot of Shugden perpetrators are becoming terrorists and that they are willing to kill anybody. They are willing to beat up anybody. It is very clear that now people who are propitiating Shugden are very close to the PRC (People’s Republic of China) leadership. That is clear.”
So by characterizing Dorje Shugden practitioners as killers and thugs with links to the People’s Republic of China the Dalai Lama and Samdong Rinpoche are appealing to some of the deepest fears that Tibetan people have. This is quite dangerous because by appealing to these fears allows the Dalai Lama to dismiss any evidence of wrongdoing in the name of protecting the Tibetan people. This is very similar to what is happening in American society. In the wake of September 11th, the Bush Administration has used the politics of fear to wage war on an enemy that didn’t pose any threat to us (as we now know Iraq had no connection to Al Qaeda and no WMD). By subscribing to fear based politics we are eliminating the role of fact-based reasoning in the proceedings. This phenomena is described so eloquently by Thomas Jefferson:
“Throughout history, our innate fear of others-who-are-different-from-us has combined all too frequently with some malignant dogma, masquerading as a message from God, to unleash the most horrific violence and oppression in the repertoire of hell. Moreover this deadly form of exclusivist group passion can be virtually invulnerable to reason. So it is especially useful to demagogues who learn how to fan it and exploit it to gain and consolidate power…
…Having replaced the divine right of kings with the divine rights of individuals, our Founders overthrew the monarchy and designed a self-government according to the structures of reason. And they took special care to insulate the ongoing deliberations of democracy against the recombination of fear and dogma, by guarding against any effort by government to establish in law any trace of divine justification for the exercise of power.” (The Assault on Reason, p48)
So what we have here is the divine right of the Dalai Lama versus the rights of individuals to practice the prayer of their choosing.
In the Al Jazeera segment the interviewer asks Tsultrim Tenzin, MP in the Tibetan Government in Exile, if the Tibetan Parliament debated the Dorje Shugden issue He replies:
“There was no argument. If there was some opposition, then there will be some argument, but there is no opposition. We do not have any doubt about the Dalai Lama’s decisions. We do not think he is a human being. He is a supreme human being, and he is god, he is Avalokiteshvara, he has no interest [in] himself, he always thinks of others. Everybody is happy. Our system is everybody is happy. There is democracy, full democracy. Everyone can experience whatever he likes”
Thomas Jefferson could not have scripted a better example as to why the divine right of kings and the divine right of individuals are incompatible governing principles. Surely Tsultrim’s nonsensical assessment that everyone is happy is callous and insensitive to those monks who are being expelled from their monasteries because of their practice of the Dorje Shugden prayer. Surely it is lunatic reasoning for those people who have been forced to flee from their homes under threat of violence because of their practice of this prayer. But the lack of interest in these crimes by the TGIE is indicative of the Tibetan thought process. The Dalai Lama is god therefore his decisions must be correct. Unfortunately this holds even if in reality they are harming others.
This divine right of the Dalai Lama in the eyes of the TGIE is allowing a bending of the law that makes a mockery of any sense of truth and justice. How can Tsultrim Tenzin say there is no opposition when on their own website, http://www.tibet.com it says:
“An organization, called Dorje Shugden Devotees Charitable and Religious Society, has been spreading a great deal of misinformation, alleging that the Tibetan Administration in exile is persecuting the devotees of a certain spirit, known as Dholgyal, otherwise known as Shugden.” (Read source article )
But this is politics Tibetan style. So instead of granting the opposition a voice in the government what it does is re-categorize the opposition as a fringe and fanatical element of society and then turn around and say that there is no political opposition. Guess again. In fact the Dorje Shugden Devotees Charitable and Religious Society have filed a lawsuit against the Dalai Lama and the TGIE for violations of basic human rights in the Delhi High Court of India having no other political recourse with their own government.
As their lawyer Shree Sanjay Jain says:
“It is certainly a case of religious discrimination in the sense that if within your sect of religion you say that this particular deity ought not to be worshipped, and those persons who are willing to worship him you are trying to excommunicate them from the main stream of Buddhism, then it is discrimination of the worst kind.”
The PRC wishes a big thank you to Western Shugden militants for distracting the attention of the world from this very real issue.
The Dalai Lama banned the practice of Dorje Shugden to weaken the Gelugpa tradition, to gain power with a view to becoming the head of all Tibetan Buddhist traditions, to give carte blanche for mixing traditions and to distract Tibetans from his own political failure to not only secure an independent Tibet but to fail to even establish an autonomous Tibet within China. These are the ‘very real issues’
PRCjoke should therefore blame the Dalai Lama for starting this, not Western Shugden practitioners for opposing it.
PRCjoke: Well put (#214), While certainly not a proper debate in either the Oxford or Sera sense, I think any objective reader have noted the mutual support between The Red Chinese and the Shugden people. Revealing that connection has been accomplished, I will now withdraw and pursue less trivial issues.
I’m getting e-mails from (unknown sender) with enclosures attached, I think I’ll quit here just in case, I can’t afford to replace my computer
AVOID ALL PRO-SHUGDEN, NKT/WSS WEBSITES.
THERE IS A DANGER YOU WILL INFECT YOUR PC WITH CHINESE MALWARE AND SPYWARE.
THESE ARE NOT SAFE PLACES TO VISIT.
Red: You won’t be getting that kind of thing from Tricycle’s website. You should report any suspicious emails to your internet service provider.
Was that Dead Red or Better Red than Dead! Yes! you better get your computer out of the schism before the Dalia figures out how to send an email.
Give Bob my regards and enjoy the ride to freedom on the Democratic Express.
Avoid the WSS and NKT sites. What a bunch of silly people you are to make up all of these stories about the poor old slave master being a monk. What a joke!
Philip Ryan: Thanks, I’m sure Tricycle maintains a proper firewall, nevertheless a number of people have had their computers interfered with even before the massive PRC assault in 2008.
In any case I can avoid the ramblings of a certain wealthy but clearly unhappy American ‘Shambhala warrior’ and other assorted cult ‘content-generators’ just by tuning out.
oh this is so funny - look at all the anti Gelug trolls! as a Rime person you claim and yet you hate Gelugpa so much? HAHAHAHAHAH
It is sad to see everyone attacking Lama Tsongkhapa’s tradition because it was the most popular tradition in Tibet and that its system is the best of this time. I am not with NKT nor do I practice Shudgen, but His Holiness the Dalai Lama has also acknowledged his presence and so have I. So, doesnt that make HHDL a shudgenite too? why not hate him?
the protector oracle incident where Shudgen hijacked to make a point can be traced back to some dudjom website when the name gets googled. It’s not a new lineage but it does show blatant hate, lack of clarity and wisdom, just like the stupid, muddled people you are. Pigs like to wallow in filth and you’re no exception if you like to bask in criticizing others. I just pointed out the truth.
proof?
Pretending to be Dragshul Wangpo, you tormented the oracle
By swallowing a vajra in his throat,
And repeatedly split his temple abode, and so on,
Praise to the terrifier of even the great gods!
and who is Dragshul Wangpo?http://www.mirrorofwisdom.org/estore/display.php?RecordID=1130160913
DO THE MATH BLIND FAITH EX TIBETANS!
also, before you want to engage in further gelugpa bashing, remember:
What is important to remember is JUST BECAUSE YOU ATTEND THE DALAI LAMA’S TEACHINGS, OR HAVE TAKEN PHOTOS WITH HH DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY VALIDATE YOU AS A SPIRITUAL POLICEMAN AND GO ON WITCH-HUNTS.
who made you a spiritual policeman to criticize another lineage? Who gave you the permission to go on a witch hunt for DS practitioners? If you were tibetans I could understand but as westerners, dont you think you’re degrading yourselves and your own culture and mentalities to do so?
and since you claim to be rime when you are not, you do sound like some clown from e-sangha, the circus of ex tibetans who run it like some catholic church. Go back to your church where you belong!
And just to re-iterate:there is nothing wrong with the Nyigma lineage. They may have made a mistake somewhere along but they’re good now. But for them to launch assaults against the Gelugs due to this incident is very sad because it’s not Buddhist and it implores the exploitation of blind faith.
I wish Nyigma, Sakya and Kagyu teachers would start educating their disciples to not wage war against Gelug. And I wish students would stop attacking Gelugpa because it wont be much difference than attacking their own tradition because what the Gelugs have all came from Nyigma, Sakya and Kagyu. Penor Rinpoche has already passed away. Do you want to create the causes for the next Nyigma master to pass? or Kagyu? or Sakya? THINK.
It has been stated in many texts before that students causing schism causes the Lama to not manifest or have a short life. Attacking another sect is schism. go ahead and post more anti gelug/anti shudgen propaganda and count the days to your lama’s life. The more you post, the more you show hate towards your own lama.
Dear Shitrap: Is that a veiled threat? You cultists seem to suggest it is the god DS decides who lives and when. If that is the case you are not even remotely buddhists whatsoever but have descended into paranoid form of primitive theism or totemism–Tiki god very angry! Unless one is engrossed in in a psychotic state your insulting diatribe is simply just plain false. I would be interested in someone conducting a survey to see if there is a correlation between the extreme zealotry (such as senior NKT ‘monks’, at least those not turfed for sex abuse of their attendants and students) and a personal history of LSD binging.
The cultists posts are great adverts for NOT getting involved in these “dharma” groups. So angry and mean-spirited , where is the goodwill, lost a long time ago it seems. Like chimpanzees beating their chests-so egotistically. I hope young people steer clear of cults.
Yes! Cults like the Dalia Lama Cult. You are either in his grasp or you are not!
These Medievalist think they are dealing with peasants, when in actuality, We are People from the Future.
The TGIE/Samdung & Dalia Lama do not have a leg to stand in in the New Delhi High Courts for violating their core values that are instilled within the Indian, American, English, China,Tibetan Constitutions. That All People may choose whatever beliefs they wish.Period!
We are neither mean spirited nor angry with these people who live their lives in ignorance due to their circumstances, it is small wonder that children and grandchildren of Serfs and Slaves cling to their former Master.Afterall, he’s had over 350 years to brainwash you into complete and total submission to one man’s will certainly surpassses any other Dictator or Ruler to maintain control of his subjects silenting suffering in Servitude with no hope in this life of a better life.
This neither China, India nor your Tibetan Colonies. This is the United States of America and here we will defend our Rights to Religious Freedom against any pretenders. We will fight anywhere and anytime to defend the Rights of All People, Who suffer at the hands of a Tyrant.
Dalia betryal of the Precepts and the Principles of the Bill Of Rights have placed him in a postion that is impossible to extricate himself from ,which is, He and Samdung have Broken the Law.
Those who break the law and cause others to suffer will suffer the consequences of the law and Be Punished.
Say what you will. We will be in New York to demonstrate against this common Tyrant that scoops up money from the unwary as Madoff has done to those who trusted in him.
Aside from the fact that he interfers in our attmepts to heal and encourage healthy realtionships with former advesaries as he lies about Tibet. It is the Chinese who will loan the US, Trillons of USD to restore our economy. The President will see for himself the atrosities the Tibetan Peasants endured under his reign for over 350 years. I am certain President Obama will be surprised and shocked to see the exhibit in Being this next month. I am certain the Chinese will make a point of sharing this Museum dedicated to the Peasants of Tibets and their Emmancipation Proclamation called, “SERF’S EMMANCIPATION DAY”.
Maybe Dalia will recant before this over, just like he did last time his regret forced him to mold a figure of Dragpa Gyalstshen into Dorje Shugden. What is with this guy, first he doesnt’, then he does?? What gives Dalia?
Hey Bob Thurman, we still await your reply that you are not a traitor and a liar. We still challenge you debate any of us, anywher and anytime on UTUBE, Bob?…….bob………………?? Bob, where are you?are you there, Bobbie?
It’s hard to tell if that was a parody of Mr. Canada, or the real thing. If it was the latter, its hard to tell if he is an adult or even literate. I won’ waste my time reading your incoherent ramblings any more, sorry. Good bye.
US inspection records are showing that imports from China are unfit for human consumption.The US Food and Drug Administration has detained more than one thousand shipments at ports containing tainted Chinese dietary supplements, toxic cosmetics and counterfeit medicines. Consumer activists and politicians, upset about contaminated food products, are demanding action. With the numerous pet deaths and tainted food, they would like to slow food imports from China, but such a move would be next to impossible. Because of its low costs and wages, China has become virtually the only source for certain food products, including wheat gluten and ascorbic acid, reports this article in “The Washington Post.” Politicians are in no hurry to enact regulations to keep food costs low. Many US firms have factories in China and actively pursue that market, and thus do not want any disruptions in the growing flow of trade. Likewise, China wants to gain a foothold in the US meat market, so US regulations are slowly easing. For now, the US prohibits meat products from China, but some meat products, labeled as vegetables, slip by the inspectors. Also, in 2006, the US hurriedly changed rules, before a visit by the Chinese president, allowing firms to send chickens raised in the US on a round trip to China for processing, then returned for sale in US markets. Increasingly aware about their food, consumers ultimately control the market, and with every purchase can make a choice on saving money or demanding safety. – YaleGlobal
Consider this before shopping at Walmart or Dollar Stores: “Environmental degradation is now so severe, with such stark domestic and international repercussions, that pollution poses not only a major long-term burden on the Chinese public but also an acute political challenge to the ruling Communist Party. And it is not clear that China can rein in its own economic juggernaut.
Public health is reeling. Pollution has made cancer China’s leading cause of death, the Ministry of Health says. Ambient air pollution alone is blamed for hundreds of thousands of deaths each year. Nearly 500 million people lack access to safe drinking water.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/26/world/asia/26china.html
from the Christian Science Monitor, “China’s pollution nightmare is now everyone’s pollution nightmare”–
“The growing Chinese taste for furs and exotic foods and pets is devastating neighboring countries’ populations of everything from gazelles to wolves, and turtles to parrots, while its appetite for shark fin soup is causing drastic declines in shark populations throughout the oceans. According to a study published in Science in March 2007, the absence of the oceans’ top predators is causing a resurgence of skates and rays, which are in turn destroying scallop fisheries along America’s Eastern Seaboard. Enthusiasm for traditional Chinese medicine is causing huge declines in populations of hundreds of animals – including tigers, pangolins, and sea horses. Seeking oil, timber, and other natural resources, China is building massive roads, bridges, and dams throughout Africa, often disregarding international environmental and social standards.”
http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0319/p09s01-coop.html
“Shimmering Tears”
There is nothin incoherent about Robert Thurman refusal to answer the claims brought against him that he is in fact a ‘liar’. Robert Thurman was challenged to a Debate to defend his actions that harm other Practioners.Ellen, consider not taking offense each time another person is attempting to comunicate with others.
Your slights bring nothing but a sour smile across your face.
Kindly insert information or actual opinions.
Bob knows what I am talking about, even if you Ellen ….? What was your name, I’m sorry, I did not catch it. RIght Conduct! Right Speech….remember.
Besides Ellen! It was Bob Thurman that so gleefully charged that Dorje Shugden Practioners are ‘Taliaban’,Yes! They are just like the Taliaban’, his quote to Newsweek.
In case you had not noticed,had Bob not been so insulting to a revered Tradition of Mahayanna Buddhism. The Full Page Photo of the Protector would never have been published in a Globally circulated magazine.
One might suspect that in fact there might be an agenda to salvage Mahayanna Buddhism by feinging this ruse to increase the popularity of Shri Dorje Shugden.
I certainly do not pretend to know, why Tomo Geshe Rinpoche enlisted the Protector to steal the Dalia Lama out from under the noses of the Chinese, only to be persectued by the same Dalia Lama decades later.
Whatever the outcome, you have to admit that the Chinese are opening up to the activities of Buddhist within China and doing more than I’ve witnessed in my lifetime to spread the Dharma.
If Dalia is a Dalia and not a wicked man, then it should be apparent that something other than what we mere sentient beings perceive as we are compelled to fulfill our place and time with the words wed speak. Is that not the essence of generating bodhichitta? Compassion for others.
From what I understand this is a Big Healing for a lama that has become ill !
All the rest, we can only guess at the truth of anything.
Sorry my passion sours your essence. It is not intended to offend you personally.
Dear Nyima,
Short response to #182:
You mainly assert things without any proof. I could also assert the same about Nechung or other mundane protectors.
I could claim in the same way.
“Nechung emanates as a worldly deity but that does not mean his MINDSTREAM IS WORLDY OR MUNDANE. It is simply his emanated mode. He is Manjushri emanated in worldly form. Why does he emanate in a worldly mode? Because due to the low merits of beings in the kaliyuga, it would be easier for them to benefit from his help due to close ‘proximity’.”
This is not the way how Buddhism is functioning. A mundane protector is a mundane protector and will perform the actions of a mundane protector. For a correct classification see either Mumford, Wojkowitz or this article by Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche:
http://info-buddhism.com/dorje_shugden_Choegyal_Namkhai_Norbu.html
You fall into the same trap as almost all Shugdenpas: Just claims. Claims and a lot of contradictions when one compares the claims with origin sources and investigates the Shugden cult how it was set up and developed….
You complete post continues with unverified claims how Shugden could grow in stature, that Pabongkha was no government agent and that the forcefully conversion didn’t happen – the common stuff of Shugdenpas: just claims and denial of historic facts or labelling them as “rumours”. Such a self-defensive and denial behaviour is no basis for common ground or “dialogue”.
Then you mix in these claims and denials with some correct facts like that the Tibetan govt has banned the incarnation of Sharmapa and closed his estates – without mentioning the reason and that this is quite a dissimilar case than the sectarian and violent conversions. (I gave already reliable academic sources for this and also an extract from eyewitnesses… Not even high Gelugpa lamas, whose root guru is Trijang Rinpoche, deny these forcefully conversions ….)
So I save my time to respond and go into detail, as I said already there is no dialogue with fundamentalists. It is always the same pattern I experience with Shugdenpas: they are right, facts are ignored or labelled as rumours, facts are spun, stories are twisted or newly created, details left out to keep the story consistent, it’s just the same old story.
You continue your spin in #200.
“As I mentioned the other day, no High Gelug lama would ever forcibly convert Nyingma to Gelug. Actually there is no conversion. Nyingma and Gelug are both Buddhists.”
Read the academic sources I mentioned or eyewitness accounts of it. But even this is wasted time a close mind won’t get it.
Bye.
#212. John Micheal you appear to be just another of these NKT created internet identities for the sake to create opinion and “facts”.
Why do i think this?
Sometimes in your post you write “we tibetans” on other places you speak about “the Dalai Lama does have an impressive track record of what he has done for his country and his people.”
You are a Tibetan but it is his country?
Jerry Smith in post #213 steps into this type of createing opinion and “facts”, and you both just repeat the common claims and allegations of NKT/WSS but try to do it in a more moderate way. I wonder when the WSS site or one of their blogs will pick up these posts to show it as “real concerns” of Tibetans or democrats.
After Weissenberger identity and Tsarong Tashi Pelbar identity were a bit easy to identify as probably fakes, now the NKT “truth team” tries to improve their skills? I do not say to this trial: Good Luck. I would like to ask you: Please NKT clean your own place first, its all a shame and it will fall back on you.
Dorje Setrap, what are you suggesting? Your posts appear to be quite baseless. There are Rime posters who hate the gelugpas? I’ve seen none. Your posts are rather devisive, feed prejudice and it appears to me that you wish to create schism where there is no schism here. Are you from the “truth team”?
Shugden and Gelugpa are two different things, the latter is a tradition while Shugden is just a (controversial) practice. Gelug was established without Shugden and it will continue without him.
Sure Bob! Whatever you say.
Canada: The previous Tomo Geshe Rinpoche himself was incarcerated by the Chinese for several years. In a very emaciated state, he walked to India and found his way back to Kalimpong with the help of Tibetans and others along the way. Chinese border guards asked him if he had seen a big lama, he replied ‘no, he hadn’t.’ They didn’t expect a frail monk of small stature to be their quarry. I’m not sure Tomo Geshe Rinpoche himself would be as keen on the Chinese as you people are, but then I do not pretend to speak for him as others presume to do. This story of Shugden affording the Dalai Lama safe passage is a fabrication, it seems the western neophytes swallowed this spun yarn moreso than even Tibs. DS did not protect Tomo Geshe Rinpoche from suffering years in a Chinese jail, did “he”?
NB “The second Domo Geshe Rimpoche, a Sikkimese had gone to Tibet for studies where he was imprisoned in Tibet (1959-61) by the Communist Chinese and later on released largely due to the efforts of the Govt of India on the request and mass signature campaign by the Indian Bhutias of Darjeeling and Bhutias of the then Sikkim ( Protectorate )”
-The Himalayan Beacon
Yes, thanks for the addendum, I was telling the story from memory as Tomo Geshe Rinpoche told me himself many years ago! When one considers the harsh policy of the Chinese at least up to the 1970’s Cultural Revolution (when the systematic demolition of Tibet’s cultural infrastructure,in terms of monastic buildings, temples, artwork, etc.) took place it is entirely feasible Tomo Geshe Rinpoche would not have been released until then or later had he not hailed from the Kingdom of Sikkim.
wisdombuddha/post/7409
I thank and praise those Geshes and practitioners keeping their commitments at the cost of their lives.
To me, it is really scary to become aware that somebody is lying you. This is perhaps why I neglect to improve my understanding on this matter.
I have read now a few issues on “sectarianism” by the Dalai Lama and his followers and never thought much about such that topic.
Since it seems a “big” issue and it is used to cry out loud against Dorje Shugden I decided to understand what “sectarian” means… and started like many of us… by simply doing a search on Internet… like a “smell test”.
Below is the definition of “sectarianism” found… and I added the text in brackets. So far I honestly cannot say similar things about Dorje Shugden practitioners (… and I even tried to say something)
“Sectarianism is bigotry, discrimination, prejudice or hatred arising from attaching importance to perceived differences between subdivisions within a group, such as between different denominations of a religion or the factions of a political movement.” [The Dalai Lama has caused people to perceived differences between those following his advise and those practicing Dorje Shugden. This situation has triggered bigotry denominations such as “Shugdenitees”, “Dholgyals” and the like; discrimination to Dorje Shugden practitioners for their beliefs within Tibetan communities and even Western Buddhist organizations; prejudice against Dorje Shugden practitioners; and hatred and dislike about Dorje Shugden practice]
“The ideological underpinnings of attitudes and behaviors labeled as sectarian are extraordinarily varied. Members of a religious or political group may feel that their own salvation [i.e. of Tibetan politics and religion], or success of their particular objectives, requires aggressively seeking converts from other groups [i.e. forced signature campaigns and other expressions of loyalty to the Dalai Lama to assure conversion of any Dorje Shugden practitioners into non-Dorje Shugden practitioners]; adherents of a given faction may believe that for the achievement of their own political or religious project their internal opponents must be purged. [i.e. expel those not adhering to the Dalai Lama’s view of not practicing Dorje Shugden]”
“Sometimes a group feeling itself to be under economic or political pressure will attack members of another group thought to be responsible for its own decline.” [i.e. Dalai Lama’s followers have enforced many actions against Dorje Shugden practitioners as some have even blame Dorje Shugden and practitioners for their faults and failures, and nearly extinction of Tibetan culture]
“It may also more rigidly define the definition of “orthodox” belief within its particular group or organisation [i.e. if you do not follow the Dalai Lama you are not Buddhist anymore] and expel or excommunicate those who do not agree with this newfound clarified definition of political or religious ‘orthodoxy.’ [i.e. if you practice Dorje Shugden you should be expelled from Buddhist communities and you are not Buddhist anymore]”
“In other cases, dissenters from this orthodoxy will secede from the orthodox organisation and proclaim themselves as practitioners of a reformed belief system, or holders of a perceived former orthodoxy. [i.e. followers of the former lineage of Gelug Gurus not following the Dalai Lama]”
“At other times, sectarianism may be the expression of a group’s nationalistic or cultural ambitions, or exploited by demagogues. [i.e. See Dalai Lama’s speeches in this regard]”
[I was really surprised of actually becoming aware that someone is lying about the “sectarian” issue against Dorje Shugden practitioners... and is not Dorje Shugden. Definitively each of us has to improve our own understanding... and some of us have a lot to purify]
Dear Mr. Canada: You have called the Dalai Lama a ’slave owner’ a routine charge of the online PRC propaganda brigade. I challenge you to cite one referenced example of child labour, chattel labour, bonded labour or slave labour practices in the Tibetan refugee community in the last 50 years. The following report is excerpted from the Anti-Slavery Society website. Anti-Slavery International is the world’s oldest international human rights organisation, founded in 1787, when slavery was integral to the British colonial and American economies.
China sentences 29 in brick kiln forced labour case
17 July 2007
“A man was sentenced to death and 28 others imprisoned on 17 July for using forced labour in brick kilns in Shanxi province, China. Those found guilty include a brick kiln supervisor who was sentenced to death for killing a man and a kiln foreman who was sentenced to life in prison for illegal detention and intentionally hurting workers. A kiln owner, son of a local Communist Party official, was sentenced to nine years in prison.
Over 570 adults and children were freed from slavery in raids on brick kilns; many had been abducted and sold as labour.
They were forced to work 16 to 20 hours a day for no pay and meagre food, housed in squalid conditions, locked in and kept under guard. They were only allowed out for work, were regularly beaten and suffered a range of injuries. At least 13 died from overwork and abuse, reports say.”
http://www.antislavery.org/index.htm
(Presently there are about 40 articles and research papers regarding inhumane labour practices in modern Communist China) on thissite
“Dalai Lama - The Devil Within”. From this series of clips it’s pretty obvious that he is lying even to people who are uneducated with regard to the Dorje Shugden controversy.
In other news, related to the Dorje Shugden controversy, someone named Jigme left this comment on an article of the Orangeville Citizen newspaper in Ontario, Canada. Hopefully, the media will eventually look behind the glossy image of the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan Government in Exile and report in a balanced and accurate fashion with regard to them. Below is Jigme’s comment:
Thank you for your column “Unity vs. uniformity”. I would like to make a comment on one sentence towards the end of your article: Some see the Dalai Lama as a better model of humble witness to transcendent truth.
Although I do not doubt that, as a communications person, you remember the demos in 3 continents against the Dalai Lama, last Summer, I would like to request you to please bear in mind their meaning, in order not to publish, if possible, non-qualified, non-commented-upon news on the Tibetan leader…
If you remember the Dalai Lama´s actions, or find out about them then you might agree that his is one severe case of double talk, double behaviour, of … how to call it? deception of the masses using your own good fame?
Remember, the Dalai Lama instituted the segregation, persecution and religious annihilation of an important group of Buddhists, the followers of his own (the Dalai Lama’s) teachers, tagged as if by a yellow star as “Shugden worshippers”. This is an unprecedented case in Buddhist history, and the Dalai Lama is getting away with it because the Press and the politicians and even the common folk do not like to admit that they were deceived by his charming smile and the sacred words of the Buddha that he repeats while betraying them.
Please go back to your archives, please review what has been said, what has been happening. Try to understand that he produced a painful and unheard of schism in the Tibetan Sangha, i.e., among the Gelukpa monks, his own people. He used his religious and political power to implant hatred and segregation against even the lay people following this very traditional Tibetan Buddhist belief.
If you would like to find about it, you might like to go to some websites. They are not very perfectly written, these people do not have PR specialists advising them, but they are defending the victims of the Dalai Lama and they are saying the truth.
The Dalai Lama preaches compassion to the world but does not practice it at home, in his backyard.
http://www.shugdensociety.info
http://www.wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.org
The Dalai Lama had finally sent a response through his advocate to the High Court of New Delhi, India, on the 19th of December, 2008. This was precisely 9 and a half months after he had received a Notice from the Court-questioning his actions behind the Ban and asking him to provide a response. His response has been inconclusive and irresponsible!
Samdhong Rinpoche
To begin with, it is Samdong Rinpoche, the supposed Prime Minister of the Tibetan Government in Exile, who has incidentally, responded on the behalf of the Tibetan leader. The Dalai Lama, on the other hand, has stayed aloof, apparently to demonstrate his sanctimonious position, which is probably even beyond diplomatic immunity! The response, in itself, is a ridiculous compilation of excessive lying and denials. It claims the court has no legal jurisdiction in matters of religion-the ban being a religious directive of the Tibetan leader-who has a mandate to guide the Tibetan people in the religious and political sphere.
On the other hand, as stated, there is a vehement denial of the fact that the Dalai Lama ever even placed a ban, or issued the referendum. Samdong claims that there has been no discrimination, no abuse of human rights, no suppression of religious freedom, no jobs have been denied, and no students have been expelled from schools! The 15, or so, monks who were denied entry to the settlement, were rejected due to the ban placed by the monasteries themselves, not by the Dalai Lama.
The Prime Minister, would rather engage in mud-slinging, as he wants the court and the world, to take note of the unholy liaison, of Kundeling Rinpoche and Lama Gangchen Rinpoche with the Communist Chinese government. According to Samdong: It is to minister the misdeeds and animosity of this duo, that such vicious attacks have been made to the holy Dalai Lama.
To prove the immaculate antecedents of the Dalai Lama, almost all of his ministries have attested letters to the effect. There even seems to be a letter from an obscure Indian minister. The National Human Rights Commission of New Delhi (NHRC) claims to the effect that no objections had been raised against the Dalai Lama. A letter from a so-called press Union, calling itself UBO, alleged to be in Switzerland, claims that the Swiss TV Channel Documentary ‘10 vor 10′, was one-sided and biased in its interpretation of the on-going deity controversy, thus giving the Dalai Lama a clean sheet.
These, in substance, are clever ploys and face saving tactics on the part of the Dalai Lama and his Government. The Tibetan Government in Exile has even claimed, that under the leadership of the Dalai Lama there is harmony and good-will amongst all the Tibetan traditions, wherever Tibetans abide within and outside Tibet! And this, Samdong claims ”has never happened before in the history of Tibet”.
The ball is now back in the court of Shugden practitioners and a response is being prepared. Please make prayers for the success of this court case.
‘The Dalai Lama: The Devil Within’ as one of their top stories of 2008. Below is the section of the documentary focused on the Dalai Lama being taken to court on grounds of religious discrimination by Kundeling Rinpoche.
As the lawyer for the persecuted Shugden practitioners, Shree Sanjay Jain, explains:
“It is certainly a case of religious discrimination in the sense that if within your sect of religion you say that this particular Deity ought not to be worshipped, and those persons who are willing to worship him you are trying to excommunicate them from the main stream of Buddhism, then it is a discrimination of worst kind.”
Al Jazeera adds:
“No matter what the outcome of the court case, in a country where millions of idols are worshipped, attempting to ban the Deity is an uphill battle. One in which many Buddhist monks have lost their faith in the spirit of the Dalai Lama.”
Al Jazeera’s People and Power has named ‘The Dalai Lama: The Devil Within’ one of their top two stories of 2008. As a result, Al Jazeera is now featuring it along with a story entitled ’Trumped’ which is about Donald Trump trying to build a billion dollar golf course in Scotland. The two stories have nothing in common, but it is wonderful that Al Jazeera is once again drawing attention toward the Dalai Lama’s religious persecution of Shugden practitioners. After the first day of being posted on Youtube, the story had around 1,000 views.
‘Good Advice from Lama Zopa…‘. This article sheds light on some of the history of the founders of the Foundation for the Preservation of the Mahayana Tradition (FPMT) and their reliance on Dorje Shugden in the past. Both Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa relied upon Dorje Shugden as their Dharma Protector. Lama Yeshe relied upon Dorje Shugden until his death. Even against the advice of the Dalai Lama. Unfortunately, Lama Zopa has followed the Dalai Lama’s advice and now he enforces the ban on Dorje Shugden within the FPMT.
The Wisdom Buddha Dorje Shugden Blog is definately the most valuable resource I’ve found on the web for keeping up with the religious discrimination against Shugden practitioners. A recent post titled Tibetan Youth Congress Enforces Dalai Lama’s Ban on Dorje Shugden, reveals that the forced signature campaigns are still in full swing.
After reading this article, I came across a news article from India. The source of the article was obviously the Tibetan Government in Exile. It was full of their usual lies: Shugden practitioners are murderers sponsored by the Chinese Government etc.
It is sad to say the least, that in their battle against the Chinese Government, the Dalai Lama and the Tibetan Government in Exile have become just as bad if not worse than those they are fighting against. In the West, it is well known that the Chinese Government feed false information to the public, in order to fulfill their own agendas. In the Dalai Lama’s quest to become the spiritual head of the Tibetans he feeds lies to the Tibetans in order to remove those who don’t rely upon him from Tibetan Society. It is definately an important time to make heartfelt prayers for those brave Shugden practitioners in India and Tibet who continue to rely upon the Wisdom Buddha Dorje Shugden.
Below is a section of the post mentioned about on the WBDS Blog:
A Spanish journalist came to the Dorje Shugden Society to interview its members about the Shugden Issue. He was in Manali when the incident happened. He reported that the Manali TYC had forced the public to come to the monastery for their signatures and oaths, telling them that they needed to close their shops and restaurants and that, if any of them did not come, the public would be asked to boycott their businesses.
The journalist was shocked at hearing this.
“Tibetans are saying that they are proceeding on the path of democracy; but they are using coercive force. I did not know much about Dorje Shugden. When I heard about the ban on Shugden, it made me want to find out more.”
The journalist asked people in Manali who had organized this campaign what was the benefit of banning this Deity? He did not get an answer, and he said they sounded hostile towards him. He said he had discovered that Tibetan religion and politics are completely mixed.
- Present Situation” in which claims are made that the WSS aims have already been met.
In fact, the WSS aims have not been met at all. It is most regrettable that the monks should be separated. Segregation did not work out too well in the South of the U.S. or in South Africa.
However, if the choice is between “separate but equal” (Jim Crow) or being deprived access to basic social services, then separate but equal is better. The question is then whether Shugden practitioners are still denied access to shops and medical care within the monasteries and nearby communities? It would appear that yes, they are, and there are accounts to show this.
Wisdom Buddha Dorje Shugden Blog - Below is a translation of part of the documentary on the Dalai Lama shown on France 2, one of the most popular documentary TV channels in France. This was watched by 4,000,000 to 5,000,000 people on Thursday October 9, 2008. Sur les traces du Dalaï Lama
Dalai Lama: That’s true, I am still the head of state, but it is because of the special situation of Tibet. I’m leading a national fight; this is not ordinary politics.
If there was a democratic debate between two democratic parties as you have in your country, then the Dalai Lama and the monks should give up their power.
Reporter:
Thus, the Dalai Lama would be the head of government despite himself, entrusted with a divine mission: Save Tibet. But do all his people agree with him, and can other views be heard?
It is by investigating the monasteries that I’ll come to know the answer.
In Southern India, I meet some dissident monks. They have chosen another way.
Lobsang Yeshe and Namgyal were previously the Dalai Lama’s bodyguards. 50 years ago, they saved the life of the head of Tibet, running away from the Chinese. But today, they feel betrayed.
Lobsang Yeshe: The Dalai Lama, I don’t want to hear about him any more. He is no longer the Buddha of Compassion. He is a traitor. The Dalai Lama has commited the gravest crime. He has divided all the Tibetans. He is against our deity, Dorje Shugden. He has forbidden us from venerating him. Because of him, I had a heart attack. Today, I am a broken man.
Reporter:
The Dalai Lama, Ocean of Wisdom, has offended his old friends. Furthermore, in January 2008, he will lose a bit of his composure. In front of thousands of supporters, he speaks with an exceptional violence against the followers of this mysterious deity: Dorje Shugden.
Dalai Lama: Because of this deity, some have became violent, it’s intolerable. I don’t want any more disorder in the monasteries. And to those who are not happy, tell them that the Dalai Lama approves of the expulsions prescribed by the abbots in the temples.
Reporter:
For the first time, I discover an authoritarian face – himself the wise Tibetan is calling for the exclusion of the faithful. Why, and who is this deity? To understand this, I am going to meet Dorje Shugden followers. These monks are for the Dalai Lama dangerous extremists.
Monk: Go ahead, this way.
Reporter:
Hidden at the back of this prayer hall, I finally discover the deity Dorje Shugden. He is holding a knife in his right hand and a human heart in the other. For his followers, Shugden brings protection, but for the Dalai Lama this deity encourages violence, and is the one who is dividing Tibet.
Monk: This deity has never divided Tibetans. This is untrue. It is the Dalai Lama who has divided us, by banning Shugden practice. Before, everything was going well. The community was living in peace.
Reporter:
Today, Shugden followers are expelled from their monasteries, and their photos are posted in the streets. A witch hunt has started in Southern India, and on this matter, the Dalai Lama has the answer of a specialist in logic.
Dalai Lama: I guarantee you, I have never given the order to get rid of Shugden followers. Nothing came from above. It is the Abbots themselves who decide these expulsions.
Reporter:
In fact, the Dalai Lama would suspect these monks of being manipulated by China ; and I will even find some of these new types of opponents in France.
Demo: Dalai Lama, liar!
Reporter:
A strong demonstration on the beach of La Baule. These European buddhists parade with an impactful slogan, even if unpleasant.
Man on the sidewalk: You are being used by the Chinese !
Reporter:
All these Buddhists are demonstrating to help their Tibetan brothers, followers of the deity Shugden. Anabelle comes from Marseille. This opponent is pointing the finger at the Dalai Lama’s contradictions.
Anabelle: It is fradulent on the Dalai Lama’s part to wear the two robes — that of the politician and the monk. The Dalai Lama is a politician, and that means he has political interests. We need to realize this because in the West we don’t want to see the truth — we want by any means to see a stainless man on the political stage.
Reporter:
The principal criticism from these European dissidents: the Dalai Lama’s religious intolerance.
Below is a section of a recent post from the blog Mountain Pheonix Over Tibet. The author of Tibet Talk recently wrote a blog post called Keep Relgion and Politics Separate. Both of these blog posts are written by Tibetans who are not Shugden practitioners, but they don’t agree with the Tibetan Government in Exile’s handling of Shugden practitioners.
If Tibetan society were truly democratic, cooperation would be based on free will, and people would be encouraged to think for themselves, making up their own minds. If Tibetan society were truly democratic, people who do not follow the opinion leader, would not be ostracised.
The way Tibetans have been handling the Dholgyal/Shugden issue says quite a bit about the state of our democratic values. We Tibetans are okay with dissenters being forced into obedience. We see nothing wrong with this political style. We have no issues with the Dalai Lama exerting pressure on dissenters by using secular government organs and tolerating oaths and signature actions in his name. Some even believe it is their duty to expose Dholgyal/Shugden supporters and slander them.
Until recently I thought, the more we talk about this conflict, the worse it becomes. I have changed my mind. I know now that it is wrong to remain silent. All genuine Tibetan democrats must speak up in the political debate over Dholgyal/Shugden. When a few are forced to take on the view of many, we’re going down a dangerous path. It is our duty to speak up. Our young democracy will remain in bad shape if we let this happen without a reaction.
Answer the question in 239., Mr. Canada, I defy you.
Personally I am least concerned with spirit oracles speaking in tongues and unknowable 17th century intrigues. Just look at Sudan today where over 200,000 have perished. Your ally China supplies the arms for oil, builds el Bashir (wanted on genocide charges) a multimillion dollar palace. The Dalai Lama and his colleague Desmond Tutu use their influence to advocate on behalf of the refugees
WSS (front for NKT and assorted cult nutbars) sucking up to China is absolutely despicable and your amoral enterprise is doomed to utter abject failure.
RON WHO?
No answer, that means you forfeit to my position, Mr Canada: China is the actual slave driven nation here and I have not even mentioned Prison Labour, products of which are illegal under American law. The Shugdens’ big shug chenpo ally will betray you and torture you in the end, look what happened to Falun Gong.
Ron, go get a passpost and identify yourself. Or just sit in the corner and talk to yourself.
So far, ronnie?You do not have my interest. If you need some education on the issue. Try the WisdomBuddha/WSS/Dorjeshugden
site and get back to me. I have other fish to fry. Ron…….whomever you are? The truth about Dalia is a hard pill to swallow and I appreciate your retiscence to avoid the pain of discovery that this schism has one perpetrator and that is DL. It is only his insanity that drives the lies and persecution from the likes of people who either do not care, or are too lazy to find out the actual facts about the Dalia lama lineage and the respercussions that he wrought on his own people, even until now.
Face the Horror that we got fooled by the Dalia and Bob Thurman. Hack out enough books on sacred esoteric knowledge and people might think you know what you are talking about . For me the charades of misrepresentation about who and what the dalia did is as wlking down a Runway at the Carnival and all the Hawkers are just ascribing Dl’s name to achieve their own self glorification and a bigger royalty that of course the Dalia gets his cut. As Thurman Hawks his wares to the naive.
Dear Mr. Canada: I won’t read the aberrations of misinformed white dharma freaks gone astray, besides we have already established on this thread that visiting NKT/WSS websites can expose one’s PC to malware and worms. The only thing frying here is your reputation, you had best cut bait and move on. I do like your mixed metaphors.
Americans often think they can impose their values on other nations, ya right, Mission Accomplished in Iraq. Talk now, pay later, shug chenpo. Must go now, my oracle is getting a incoming message from a non-existent god, talk about new age bullshit!
Look what happened to this poor Chinese peasant woman. She was a dissident who had organised protests of forcible evictions of China’s poor from their homes located in an 800-year old neighbourhood just south of Tiananmen Square in order to make room for the construction of a ‘commercial centre’ for international business for the Beijing 2008 Olympic Games. She was labelled a ’subversive’ and summarily executed:
Before: http://tinyurl.com/ctbyoh
After: http://tinyurl.com/db8eb5
Spies hacked into U.S. electric grid: report
Wednesday, April 8, 2009
The Associated Press
“Spies hacked into the U.S. electric grid and left behind mechanisms for them to disrupt service, according to a newspaper report Wednesday that renewed questions about the security of key pieces of national infrastructure.
The report in the Wall Street Journal said that the intruders have not yet sought to damage the nation’s electric grid, but that they could try in a war or some other crisis.
Government officials declined to comment on the report.
Congressional investigators and intelligence officials have warned before that electric utilities are vulnerable to cyber attacks. CIA analyst Tom Donahue told utility engineers at a conference last year that in other countries, hackers had broken into electric utilities and demanded payments before disrupting power — in one case turning off the lights in multiple cities.
Stewart Baker, the former assistant secretary for policy at the Homeland Security Department, said Wednesday that electric grids have been hacked for years, and that he would not be surprised if China, Russia and other countries had taken part.”
Chinese hackers: No site is safe
ZHOUSHAN, China (CNN) — They operate from a bare apartment on a Chinese island. They are intelligent 20-somethings who seem harmless. But they are hard-core hackers who claim to have gained access to the world’s most sensitive sites, including the Pentagon.
The leader of these Chinese hackers says there “is always a weakness” on networks that allows cyber break-ins.
1 of 2
In fact, they say they are sometimes paid secretly by the Chinese government — a claim the Beijing government denies.
“No Web site is one hundred percent safe. There are Web sites with high-level security, but there is always a weakness,” says Xiao Chen, the leader of this group.
“Xiao Chen” is his online name. Along with his two colleagues, he does not want to reveal his true identity. The three belong to what some Western experts say is a civilian cyber militia in China, launching attacks on government and private Web sites around the world.”
–excerpted from http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/03/07/china.hackers/
U.S. investigates possible hacking of government computers
May 30, 2008 (AP)A senior U.S. intelligence official, Joel Brenner, recounted a separate story of an American financial executive who travelled to Beijing on business and said he had detected attempts to remotely implant monitoring software on his handheld “personal digital assistant” device — software that could have infected the executive’s corporate network when he returned home.
The executive “counted five beacons popped into his PDA between the time he got off his plane in Beijing and the time he got to his hotel room,” Brenner, chief of the office of the National Counterintelligence Executive under the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, said during a speech in December.
Brenner recommended throwaway cellular phones for any business people traveling to China.
“The more serious danger is that your device will be corrupted with malicious software that takes only a second or two to download — and you will not know it — and that can be transferred to your home server when you collect your e-mail,” he said.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/story/2008/05/29/china-hacking.html
དགེ་བཤེས་བློ་བཟང་རྒྱ་མཚོ་མཆོག་གི་ཡང་སྲིད་ཁྲི་འདོན།
Tulku of Geshe Lobsang Gyatso video:
http://www.rfa.org/tibetan/
ronyouprove nothingbutyourpoormannersandlackofidentity.
At least I’m not a redneck. Not too many darkies in Cedar City? The Third World is rising get used to it.
You can’t insult a pseudonym, Mr. Canada, that is an absurdity, so knock yourself out. I am your friend, you just don’t see past your egotistical anger.
Several years back, in Tomo Geshe’s Ghoom Monastery, an clay idol of Shugden (which dated back to the Mongolian Sherab Gyatso at the turn of the previous century) spontaneously split and broke beyond repair. A portent of the demise of this minor god? Perhaps… coincidence –I think not! It’s over and has been for 20 years. Face it, the next generation has already forgotten the recent god so minor he was not even in the top 500. You can have oracles in Taiwan we don’t care, thats just a scam, not buddhadharma even remotely.
Thanks forposting that video link, namkhah
Long live Geshe Lobsang Gyatso. The forces of evil cannot silence the proclamation of truth.
This is not about Dorje Shugden not Dalia Lama. It is about the Principles and Laws that protect others from persecution and molesting by Hate Mongering Groups.
There are over 360+- Hate Groups on Watch in the United States.
The Dalia Lama has been brokering and inciting hate within the Tibetan Colonies to mask his failed policies to regain a toe hold in China_Tibet.’
The similarities between the Dalia Lama’s administration and Adolph Hitler’s reign of terror over the world do not go unnoticed to some of us for the methodolgy that this Dalia Lama has chosen to embrace to defend his indefensable position as a monk.
If he were an actual elected representative of an acutal nation, he would then be entitled to his unothodox treatment of Dorje SHugden Practioners. Hence, the reason the Kundenling Rinpoche filed a lawsuit against the Dalia Lama and Samdong for violating others Religious Freedom, it falls under the ‘Bill Of Rights’ and the US Constitution and of course the Indiana Constitution.
Which is why the New Delhi High Courts did not summarily dismiss the writ as frivilious. It is not a question of Free Tibet or the Spiritual Stability of this Dalia Lama, nor is it about China’s Terriotorial Perogative to claim Tibetan Territory as it own.
It is about one man that does not have the authority to step on other people opinion about how they choose to believe or worship.
It is about what position any American or People who believe as I have oultlined to defend the postion that we either all have the same rights and are protected by our laws or we are not protected and anyone person can decide for others what they can and cannot do or believe.
No one here can claim to have loved the Dalia Lama more than I once did.
No one here can convince me otherwise that this Dalia lama has overstepped his ground by attacking Dorje SHugden Practioners not only now, but for the last 350 years.
No one can tell me that this once simple monk that flew coach and spoke sincerly about the environment has not become insane or ill with all the adoration that the Hollywood have led him down the Garden Path to Narcisscism.
Quite simply, I think I was sold a Bill Of Goods, spoiled Goods at that and that is squarely on my shoulders for being so naive for so long. I did not know the true history about his man. Now that I do, I will defend my own belief in the rights of others and do what I can to make this revelation as apparent as possible to all concerned. I will not relent until this Dalia Lama recants and admits his mistake of harming others,me and my family.
Aside from this. It is in the hands of the Courts to decide whether the charges have any merit. I think they must or they would have thrown it out already.
Dalia Lama broke the law and the law will decide what is at stake.
Ever hear of Charlie Wilson? In America, even a few silly people in unusual circumstances can make a difference, if they believe in what they are doing.
So, I can only hope that we all do what we can and unpleasant as it might be to see beyond the picture frame to the actual object of concern and decide if one person can control others beliefs legally.
I think the outcome is clear. It is the same reason we can sit here and say what we want within the bounds of civility, without worrying about people dragging you out into the streets and beating you for your words and beliefs. This is why I have forwarded this issue of Hate Mongering to the attention of “The Southern Poverty Law Center” a new kind of Tibet watch on hate mongering. It is against the law in the United States to commit hate crimes and President Obama takes these hate issues very seriously and committed to bring those who violate the law to Justice.
It’s about Western Freedom in the very least. I cannot answer to the mess in regard to the the Tibetan Indian Colonies Ideas of democracy. Apparently it’s only a show as the Refugees choose to worship and push their God King as a representative of Democratic Ideals is sad and misguided to say the least.
Sooner or later we Americans will come to realize the akwardness of admiring a God King is as out of date and the reason we threw out King George in our War of Independence.
No Kings nor God Kings are allowed here.
The Courts Will Decide Next September in New Delhi! Until then, we will assert our position and defend our Rights Anytime and Anywhere.
Got a problem with that.Too Bad!
So much vile speech Thomas, there is nothing to add.
BTW, I think now, its good that a court is investigating this subject, this will bring some factual accuracy and balanced perspectives into this issue.
I certainly agree that anyone writing ethnocentric hate messages against an identifiable ethnic group or person should be prosecuted. That puts WSS in rather an awkward position. Here are a couple of gems of western buddhist purple prose:
WSS quote “Throughout your life you have pretended to be a Buddhist holy being giving Buddhist teachings that you have stolen from Trijang Rinpoche. By doing this, you have cheated people throughout the world. In summary, it is clear that your real nature is cruel and very evil.”
Here’s another “All these horrible situations have developed through the power of your evil actions. This is our valid evidence to prove that you are not Buddhist. Because of this, we also believe that you are the saffron robed Muslim.”
Since when in this world, has the term Muslim become an insult? I am certain many of our Islamic brothers and sisters would take exception to this usage. WSS inflammatory extremist rhetoric easily borders on–if not exceeds–the criteria of hate literature by the standards of most liberal democracies. Had the target of the WSS/NKT defamation campaign been the Pope or a Prime Minister, for example, the legal consequences for the hate-mongers would have already resulted in imprisonment or fines for the social miscreants, modern day Rasputin wantabes.
NKT/WSS ought to follow the seventh step of Alcoholics Anonymous: Identify who you have offended and hurt,
and apologize.
Here’s a clue–every single Tibetan is offended by your smear campaign, you have no respect from this quarter no matter how much ‘content’ (and I’m being forgiving here) WSS/NKT generates. You are wasting your time and money with these deceitful and aggressive tactics. On the other hand, you discredit yourselves no end every time speak and you reveal your ignorance of the Buddhadharma, so go ahead, knock yourself out!
IBD enthrones its first reincarnate Tulku
Phayul[Tuesday, April 07, 2009 15:56]
By Phurbu Thinley
The nine-year old boy recognised as the Tsenyi Khentrul Tenzin Tseten Rinpoche during the coronation ceremony in Dharamsala, Monday, April 6, 2009
Dharamsala, April 7: A nine-year-old boy recongnised as Tulku Tsenyi Khentrul Tenzin Tseten Rinpoche was on Monday formally enthroned as the reincarnation of late Geshe Lobsang Gyatso by the Dharamsala-based Institute of Buddhist Dialectics (IBD).
Late Geshe Lobsang Gyatso, who founded the IBD and the College for Higher Tibetan Studies in Sarah, also in Dharamsala, was assassinated by a group of assailants allegedly affiliated to Dhoegyal or, Dorjee Shugden Devotee’s Charitable and Religious Society.
Senior officials of the Central Tibetan Administration and, representatives from various monasteries and NGOs attended the religious coronation ceremony at the Main Tibetan Temple (Tsuglagkhang).
Tulku Tsenyi Khentrul Tenzin Tseten Rinpoche was born on 14 May 2001 in Ladakh to Tsering Gyaltsen and Kesang Yangkyi, who were also present during the enthronement.
Late Ven. Lobsang Gyatso: 1928 – 1997 (Photo: IBD)
Tenzin Tseten was recognised by His Holiness the Dalai Lama as the new reincarnation of late Geshe Lobsang Gyatso on 1 February 2006.
According to IBD’s website, the late Geshe was born in 1928 in a small village in eastern Tibet. He was ordained at the age of eleven, and later traveled to central Tibet to study at Drepung Monastery. Fleeing Tibet in 1959, he founded the Institute of Buddhist Dialectics in Dharamsala under the guidance of His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
“The founding of the Institute of Buddhist Dialectics and College for Higher Tibetan Studies Sarah is the work for which Lobsang Gyatso will be best remembered,” the Institute of Buddhist Dialectics mentioned in its website.
The institute described the late Geshe as a “Tibetan patriot,” “fearless social critic and a deeply spiritual man.”
The government of China executes between 7000 and 15000 people each year (they hide the official toll) for such crimes as credit card fraud, tax evasion, smuggling, even purse snatching..
But the fastest way to get executed in China is to speak out against the government’s suppression of human rights.
No other country is in China’s league when blood thirstiness is the criteria.The next most prolific executor of its citizens is Irag with less than 200. China is in a league of its own when it comes to killing its own citizens.
That might include the 5th Dalia Lama in your accounting of dead citizens.
Maybe you do not understand that the Tibetan History is filled with treachery, mutilations and death by this incarnate embodiement of compassion and wisdom.
Check out the new museum in Beijing. You cannot sweep your history under the rug. Tibetans are no more except from cruelty than anyine else.
Avereage life under the Dalia Lamas was 36, now it is 67.
Why is that?
China has a Billon people to manage, Tibetans have no power to manage anyone . Why are there no Tibetan Doctors or lawyers? Perhaps the Dalias wanted it that way. Education brings upheaval and dissatisfaction. What punishment would Dalia choose if he could do anything? Which he cannot or he would have done it by now.
Iraq has …………..?
Tibet is not a nation and never was recognized by the other Nations in the world. Why is that?
AT LEAST 1200 people were executed globally last year, with China leading the way among the world’s most prolific users of the death penalty, Amnesty International says.
The London-based human rights group warned, however, that those figures were only minimum estimates. The true extent of the use of capital punishment could not be known because in many countries state executions were shrouded in official secrecy.
“The secretive use of the death penalty must stop: the veil of secrecy surrounding the death penalty must be lifted,” Amnesty said in a statement. “Many governments claim that executions take place with public support. People therefore have a right to know what is being done in their name.”
In its report, released on Monday, Amnesty said that at least 1252 people had been executed in 24 countries around the world in 2007, 88% of which took place in China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and the US.
“The true figures were certainly higher,” its report read.
Your number is 7,000_15,000 executed in China?
What is your source that is in conflict with Amnesty International?
Sounds like the 1.2 millon Tibetans supposedly killed during the Liberation. Wow! I am so glad your numbers are untrue and inaccurate. Otherwise the Chinese acted as the Dalia Lama when he ceased control of Tibet by enlisting the Mongolian Cavarly to do his slaughtering for him, except Dragpa Gyaltshen. Which he took care of himself.
What I cannot believe is that the Refugees do not return home to to enjoy all of the fantastic scenery that exist in China_Tibet.
Really beautiful! You had it all to yourself for a long time. Perhaps had you not been isolationist, you could have made contact with the modern world and kept up with current events. Like the abolishment of Slavery and Serfdoms.
Just get used to it and make something better for yourselves back where you belong. What’s in a name with all the beauty in Tibet.
Dalai Lama’s “Greater Tibet” neither historical fact nor fits in reality: experts
As the 14th Dalai Lama again talked about bringing all Tibetans under “a single autonomous administration” in his March 10 speech, Tibetologists questioned the legitimacy and feasibility of his plan.
“Greater Tibet”, long advocated by the Dalai Lama and his followers, was not a historical fact nor fitted in the reality, said Prof. An Caidan with the China Tibetology Research Center.
The “single” administration, as the Dalai Lama proposed, would cover today’s Tibet Autonomous Region, the whole Qinghai Province,parts of Sichuan, Yunnan and Gansu provinces.
As Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi said at a press conference on March 7, the Dalai Lama wants to establish “Greater Tibet” in one fourth of China’s territory.
No regime in Lhasa has ruled this whole area since the Yuan Dynasty (1271-1368), An said.
In the 13th century as the Mogul united several kingdoms in China, Tibetans joined in the empire whose capital was Dadu, Today’s Beijing.
The central government then divided the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau into three administrative regions. All of them were ruled directly from Dadu, instead of Lhasa, An said. “The central government registered residents, collected tax, deployed armies and implemented national laws in the three regions.”
“I think, the three administrative regions were set up based on different tribes and subcultures among Tibetans. This is the real origin of the three Tibetan dialect areas, U-Tsang, Kham and Ando.”
The Han emperors of Ming Dynasty, who replaced the Mogul emperors to rule China between the 14th and 17th century, followed the Yuan’s old way to administrate the plateau.
After the Manchu Emperors of Qing Dynasty, who originated in northeast China, took over the Chinese empire in the 17th century, the plateau’s administrative divisions developed much like today’s, An said.
“The boundaries of Tibet, Sichuan, Qinghai and Yunnan were drawn in 1726 and 1731. They were very close to today’s.”
Under the Qing Dynasty, the area of today’s Tibet Autonomous Region was divided into even smaller regions: the Dalai Lama’s administrative region, the Panchen Lama’s administrative region, the region of the central government’s representative official and several small manors granted by the Emperor to local lords.
“It was after 1912 when republicans overthrew the empire, that the Dalai Lama’s army seized most of what is today’s Tibet Autonomous Region but Lhasa’s rule was still much smaller than the14th Dalai Lama wants now,” An said.
“The country of Tibet” made up of U-Tsang, Kham and Ando, as the secessionists’ claimed, never existed, he said.
The Qinghai-Tibet Plateau has been an area of ethnic convergence for centuries. The birth place of the 14th Dalai Lama in eastern Qinghai was home to several ethnic groups including Tibetans in the first century. When he was born, Tibetan, Hui and Han families lived side by side in the village, he said.
“If the 14th Dalai Lama was a real wise man, he would understand the close and interlaced connections among different ethnic groups that formed in the plateau’s long history,” An said.” He should not call other ethnic groups ‘invaders’ and undermine the ethnic harmony for the sake of politics.”
Under the existing ethnic autonomous system in China, besides the provincial Tibet Autonomous Region, Tibetans had autonomous regions of city, county and township levels in neighboring provinces. They co-exist with autonomous regions of other ethnic groups and non-autonomous divisions, a flexible solution to the multi-ethnic regions.
“It is not practical to bring all Tibetans into a single administrative region,” said Sun Hongnian, a researcher with Center of China’s Borderland History and Geography Research under the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences. “What about people of Han and other ethnic groups that lived on the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau for generations? What about Tibetans who live in the habitats of Han and other ethnic groups?”
According to his research, Sun said the idea of “Greater Tibet” emerged after 1912. The regional government of Tibet argued with the central government for more land, backed by Britain who then governed India and wanted Tibet to be split from China.
At a meeting at Simla (Now Shimla) in then British India between 1913 and 1914, British officials reached a deal with Tibet’s regional government representatives: the British side would force China’s central government to agree Tibet’s “independence” and give about 1 million square kilometers of land in neighboring provinces to Tibet. In return, Tibet would give 90,000 square kilometers of border land to British India, according to Sun.
The deal failed because the central government representative refused to sign the agreement at the meeting, he added.
The 14th Dalai Lama, labelled by some as “one of our few true moral authorities”, has stuck to the same scheme for decades.
“I think, the Dalai Lama and ‘Tibetan government-in-exile’ inherited the same concept,” Sun said. “This concept also helped them unite and ease conflicts among different interest groups of Tibetans in exile as they came from different parts of the plateau.”
At the March 7 press conference, Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi said the difference between China and the Dalai Lama has nothing to do with religion, human rights, ethnic relations and culture.
“It is an issue of whether to defend China’s unity against attempts to separate Tibet from China,” he said.
Everyone has a perspective and that is the Foundation Stone of a Democratic Society. Not that the Dalia Lama respects anyone elses persective about what is a democratic society. He has no clue whatsoever.
Stop Persecuting the Shugden Practioners!
Dear Mr. Canada: I expect you don’t speak or read Tibetan or Mandarin and yet you swallow the historical narrative of the Chinese regime? There are no Shugden practitioners any more except in your orientalist fantasies. Your ill-considered campaign is too late, too rude and full of deceipt to have any effect whatsoever. Such as they are, no one is stopping Shugden people in actuality. I have had several close friends who pray to Shugden, I don’t hate them but the 19th century evangelical vision of Powanka is spent, just like Jim and Tammy and other so many other hustlers in different milieu.
You don’t supply daily food and medicine for the big monasteries in India. That puts you in no position to dictate terms. You neither pay taxes there nor are you eligible to vote. No, ordinary families support the gompas, often because their relatives are there and they are simply not interested in your wild theories apparently informed by Chinese colonial apologists any more than they can hear a coyote in Iowa baying at the moon. Why don’t you sponsor the Shugden monks to live in the US? All fifteen of them can live in your backyard, the hangers on will go where the bread is buttered soon enough.
The virus attacks have also some other practical implications for the TGIE, besides those which have been reported in the New York Times.
In the past google gave the warning not to click the sites of some of the TGIE websites, especially on Shugden (Doghyal). I recognized that this warning message is still active. Google states:
“The Worship of Shugden - Documents Related to a Tibetan Controversy
This site may harm your computer.
10 Apr 1998 … Enraged by this statement, a small number of Shugden devotees in the exile Tibetan community and their vociferous Western supporters, mostly based in … Included in this compilation are letters of the Shugden society, …
http://www.tibet.com/dholgyal/CTA-book/forward.html - Similar pages”
you’ll find this following this google link:
http://www.google.com/search?q=western+shugden+society&hl=en&lr=&start=50&sa=N
—
A report on the spy net related to TGIE can be read by the
http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/techreports/UCAM-CL-TR-746.pdf
[...] Who’s Spying on the Dalai Lama? [...]
US Congressmen’s computers hacked by Chinese:
In a press conference held on June 11 (2008), U.S. Rep. Frank Wolf has made public that his office computers were hacked in August 2006 and that the FBI and other officials informed him that the attack came from inside China. Rep. Christopher Smith, who sits on the House Foreign Affairs Committee and is also active in human rights affairs, said his computer had been attacked from inside China.
“They got everything,” Wolf said at a news briefing. The computers in his office were being used by staff members working on human rights issues, which includes the names of dissidents, access to e-mail correspondence between his office and human rights groups and records from over 24 congressional hearings on human rights abuses.
He reported that after one of the attacks, a car with Chinese officials plates went to the home of a Chinese dissident in the United States and photographed it.
Mr. Canada: Your opinions regarding Tibetan history bear a striking resemblance to an item on the People’s Liberation Army website almost word for word, what a coincidence. If I was a teacher I would reject your thesis as plagiarism, but hey, free speech is a wonderful thing in America, Jefferson and all that, remember?
from Jane’s Defense Quarterly 11 October 2005
Defections reveal extent of China’s espionage operations
“China is the biggest [espionage] threat to the US today,” David Szady, the US Federal Bureau of Investigation’s (FBI) head of counterintelligence, told The Wall Street Journal on 10 August. It is a concern fuelled by a number of Chinese defectors in recent months who claim Beijing is engaged in large-scale intelligence-gathering operations overseas.
Chen Yonglin, the first secretary of the Chinese Consulate General in Sydney, Australia, defected on 4 June. Chen told Australian authorities that Beijing had been overseeing a network of more than 1,000 spies and informers in Australia. These claims were mirrored in Canada in July when Han Guansheng, a former Public Security Bureau official in Shenyang who defected to Canada in 2001, stated publicly that Beijing manages informants in Canada’s Chinese community and gathers intelligence on key economic areas.
A second defector in Australia, believed to be a low-level intelligence official named Hao Fengjing, who came over to the Australians shortly after Chen, confirmed that China has more spies in Canada than in any other country. The Canadian Security and Intelligence Service (CSIS) will not comment on individual nations’ intelligence activities, but CSIS officials told JIR: “Foreign countries who send students and visiting scientists often use them to obtain proprietary or classified information in Canada.”
Europe is also said to be subject to China’s scrutiny. The UK’s Daily Telegraph reported in July that a Chinese intelligence defector in Belgium who had worked in European universities and companies for more than a decade, has given the Belgian security service (Sûreté de l’Etat) detailed information on hundreds of Chinese spies working at various levels of European industry. A British intelligence source told JIR that the two countries with the biggest intelligence operations in the UK were Russia and China. Whether this anecdotal evidence represents an increase in Chinese intelligence activity or just business as usual is a moot point. June Teufel Dreyer, a member of the US Congress’s US-China Economic and Security Review Commission, told JIR: “My guess is that the Chinese do not spy any more now than they did, say, 20 years ago. But they are getting better at it. Unfortunately, we are not getting better at counterspy activities.”
Dear Mr Canada: You have yet comment on the actions of your patron state documented here, we are waiting to hear how you will spin this
http://footage.tibetanbridges.com/
NangPa La - an eye witness account - Chinese soldiers Shooting & Killing Tibetan refugees
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAI_X0h6E3o
It is remarkable that Tibetan monks would risk getting shot at and killed crossing the border rather than be forced to worship Dholgyal by the renegade mad monk Gangchen.
Flashback: Highlights of the deceitful “shugden’ posters
#125.:”Tsarong Tashi Pelbar” changes his fake Tibetan’ name to Gyelpo and then blows it by saying “WHAT IS WRONG WITH CUT AND PASTE. THE POINT IS NOT I WROTE THOSE PRAISES TO KING DORJE SHUGDEN, BUT SO MANY HIGH ERUDITE…” thereby demonstrating that ‘Tsarong Tashi Pelbar’ was a fabricated, phony Tibetan name.
What a maroon.
#148. THE END IS NEAR - April 4, 2009
HEY, BOBBY AND LEO AKA HU JINTAO.
This respondant can read Mandarin, it wasn’t written in roman letters, that is in itself quite revealing for those who vehemently deny any connection to China : “We are not in league with China..that is paranoia.”
#58. “Kathy and Joel”, hands down the Triple P (propaganda planted post) winner. Hilariously stupid, as were the other instant Shugden groupies and converts. Utter intellectual dishonesty at its sleaziest –nice going cultists, you have achieved zero credibility on Tricycle blogs.
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